John Redwoods Letter to the Attorney General

http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/

1. If we sign this Treaty we will be locked into the EU and have to obey all its rules and pay all the bills it sends us for a period of at least 21 months, and probably for 45 months if we have not surrendered further to reach an exit agreement at the 21 month stage. This would mean remaining in the EU for at least 5 years from the decision to leave and probably for 7 years. The EU would be able to legislate and spend against UK interests during this period, whilst we would have no vote or voice in the matter.

2. In order to “leave” in your terms at the 5 to 7 year stage the UK will need to stay in the customs union and accept all single market rules and laws, unless the EU relented over the alleged Irish border issue. 3 years on and the EU has given no ground on the made up border issue, so why would they over the next two years? Isn’t the most likely outcome we would remain in the single market and customs union contrary to the government promise leaving meant leaving them in its referendum literature ?

3. After the 45 month period fully in the EU, the UK still would face financial obligations under the Withdrawal Treaty. The bills will be decided by the EU and we will have to pay them. Any attempt to query them would be adjudicated by the EU’s own court! The longer we stay in the more the future bills are likely to be. The £39 bn figure is likely to be a considerable underestimate.

4 The Treaty creates a category of super citizen in the UK. EU nationals living in the UK when we “leave” the EU will have their access to benefits guaranteed in a way the rest of us do not for their entire lifetimes. So we will not be taking back control of our benefit system.

I am also concerned about a number of Articles in the draft Treaty that expressly extend EU powers and jurisdiction for a further 4 to 8 years beyond our departure date after the 21 to 45 month delay.

Article 5 reintroduces the powers of the European Court and enforces “sincere co-operation ” on us as they do not want us impeding their plans for economic, monetary and political union.
Article 31 imposes social security co-ordination on us.
Article 39 gives special protection to EU citizens currently living in the UK from changes to social security for the whole of their lives, protection which the rest of us do not enjoy.
Article 51 applies parts of the VAT regime for an additional 5 years after the long transition envisaged in the Treaty
Articles 92-3 imposes the EU state aids regime on the UK for 4 years beyond transition
Article 95 imposes binding decisions by EU quangos and bodies for 4 years beyond transition
Article 99 requires us to pay for access to records to handle issues over indirect tax where the EU keeps powers for 4 years beyond transition
Article 127 applies the whole panoply of EU law throughout transition, including the right to legislate any way they wish against our interests and enforce it on us via the ECJ
Article 130 prevents us taking back control of our fish any time soon. Doubtless more of our fishing rights would be given away trying to get an exit deal.
Article 135 allows them to send extra bills up to the end of 2028
Article 140 imposes on us financial liabilities up to December 2020 and carry over into 2021
Articles 144 and 150 prevent us getting back accumulated reserves and profits from our European Investment Fund and EIB shareholdings
Article 143 imposes adverse conditions on us over pension and loan liabilities of the Union
Article 155 requires to make continuing payments to Turkey under an EU programme after we have left
Article 158 gives the European Court continuing power for 8 years after transition
Article 164 makes a Joint Committee an effective legislator and government over us
Article 174 requires any arbitration to be governed by ECJ judgements on the application of law in disputes
The Protocol on Northern Ireland will require us to stay in the Customs Union with regulatory and legal alignment with the single market, or split off a separate place called UK (NI) which will be governed differently to the rest of the UK on an island of Ireland basis.
There is much more I could object to. This is no Treaty to take back control, no Treaty for a newly independent nation. It does not quantify the financial liabilities, which are open ended and could be much larger than the low field £39bn Treasury estimate. We have little power to abate the bills and no power to abort the bills. It would probably result even in failure to take back control of our fishing grounds.
Mrs May needs to go back to the EU and explain why the UK people and Parliament have opposed this Treaty, and ask them to think again if they want an agreement before we leave. She needs to make it clear we now intend to leave without signing the Withdrawal Agreement prior to the European Parliamentary elections.
Yours
John Redwood
 
http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/

1. If we sign this Treaty we will be locked into the EU and have to obey all its rules and pay all the bills it sends us for a period of at least 21 months, and probably for 45 months if we have not surrendered further to reach an exit agreement at the 21 month stage. This would mean remaining in the EU for at least 5 years from the decision to leave and probably for 7 years. The EU would be able to legislate and spend against UK interests during this period, whilst we would have no vote or voice in the matter.

2. In order to “leave” in your terms at the 5 to 7 year stage the UK will need to stay in the customs union and accept all single market rules and laws, unless the EU relented over the alleged Irish border issue. 3 years on and the EU has given no ground on the made up border issue, so why would they over the next two years? Isn’t the most likely outcome we would remain in the single market and customs union contrary to the government promise leaving meant leaving them in its referendum literature ?

3. After the 45 month period fully in the EU, the UK still would face financial obligations under the Withdrawal Treaty. The bills will be decided by the EU and we will have to pay them. Any attempt to query them would be adjudicated by the EU’s own court! The longer we stay in the more the future bills are likely to be. The £39 bn figure is likely to be a considerable underestimate.

4 The Treaty creates a category of super citizen in the UK. EU nationals living in the UK when we “leave” the EU will have their access to benefits guaranteed in a way the rest of us do not for their entire lifetimes. So we will not be taking back control of our benefit system.

I am also concerned about a number of Articles in the draft Treaty that expressly extend EU powers and jurisdiction for a further 4 to 8 years beyond our departure date after the 21 to 45 month delay.

Article 5 reintroduces the powers of the European Court and enforces “sincere co-operation ” on us as they do not want us impeding their plans for economic, monetary and political union.
Article 31 imposes social security co-ordination on us.
Article 39 gives special protection to EU citizens currently living in the UK from changes to social security for the whole of their lives, protection which the rest of us do not enjoy.
Article 51 applies parts of the VAT regime for an additional 5 years after the long transition envisaged in the Treaty
Articles 92-3 imposes the EU state aids regime on the UK for 4 years beyond transition
Article 95 imposes binding decisions by EU quangos and bodies for 4 years beyond transition
Article 99 requires us to pay for access to records to handle issues over indirect tax where the EU keeps powers for 4 years beyond transition
Article 127 applies the whole panoply of EU law throughout transition, including the right to legislate any way they wish against our interests and enforce it on us via the ECJ
Article 130 prevents us taking back control of our fish any time soon. Doubtless more of our fishing rights would be given away trying to get an exit deal.
Article 135 allows them to send extra bills up to the end of 2028
Article 140 imposes on us financial liabilities up to December 2020 and carry over into 2021
Articles 144 and 150 prevent us getting back accumulated reserves and profits from our European Investment Fund and EIB shareholdings
Article 143 imposes adverse conditions on us over pension and loan liabilities of the Union
Article 155 requires to make continuing payments to Turkey under an EU programme after we have left
Article 158 gives the European Court continuing power for 8 years after transition
Article 164 makes a Joint Committee an effective legislator and government over us
Article 174 requires any arbitration to be governed by ECJ judgements on the application of law in disputes
The Protocol on Northern Ireland will require us to stay in the Customs Union with regulatory and legal alignment with the single market, or split off a separate place called UK (NI) which will be governed differently to the rest of the UK on an island of Ireland basis.
There is much more I could object to. This is no Treaty to take back control, no Treaty for a newly independent nation. It does not quantify the financial liabilities, which are open ended and could be much larger than the low field £39bn Treasury estimate. We have little power to abate the bills and no power to abort the bills. It would probably result even in failure to take back control of our fishing grounds.
Mrs May needs to go back to the EU and explain why the UK people and Parliament have opposed this Treaty, and ask them to think again if they want an agreement before we leave. She needs to make it clear we now intend to leave without signing the Withdrawal Agreement prior to the European Parliamentary elections.
Yours
John Redwood

Yep, clearly better off just revoking
 

fudge

Member
Yep, clearly better off just revoking
It’s in the national interest for the Tory party to come to an agreement with labour for a soft brexit. IMO the UK needs a staged withdrawal from the EU, not least because the advocates of brexit have no idea what they are doing. The fantasy that tories such as Redwood, Johnson, May or Hammond can deliver anything has persisted far too long. They don’t represent a united faction let alone the whole country.
 

robs1

Member
Yep, clearly better off just revoking
But we would still be tied to everything as described by redwood but with the illusion that we could have any input into it, the future direction of the EU is very clear to anyone who has a pair of eyes, which is fine if that's what you want but I don't believe many Europeans actually do, I keep calling it the US of E but I think it's more like the USSE at least the USA style Europe might have a chance of change, in the USSE democracy is an illusion
 
But we would still be tied to everything as described by redwood but with the illusion that we could have any input into it, the future direction of the EU is very clear to anyone who has a pair of eyes, which is fine if that's what you want but I don't believe many Europeans actually do, I keep calling it the US of E but I think it's more like the USSE at least the USA style Europe might have a chance of change, in the USSE democracy is an illusion

I have found if you want a happy life, illusion is a useful tool
 

robs1

Member
I have found if you want a happy life, illusion is a useful tool
Up to a point I would agree millions in Europe don't seem to be happy now the illusion is slipping, I have said many times let's have a vote Europe wide US of E or just trade area and get it sorted one way or the other
 
Note quite sure what he means by the 'alleged' and 'made up' Irish border issue. It seems real real enough in Ireland.

Because with a free trade deal a border for goods is not required.

That leaves migration .. I think Ireland is not in the Schengen area or even if it is border UK controls could be done on the Irish border as they are currently done in France.

In other words .. it's not an issue and never has been.

Oh, and Hammond - the Remoaner - stopped Sajid Javid's IT border solution as well.
 

Not quite true is it ?

"On top of that, the UK would lose the benefit of free trade agreements it now has with countries such as South Korea and Canada as a member of the EU. Therefore, more British imports and exports would face tariffs."

That's down to individual countries to agree .. in fact you may find that these agreements stand anyway as some agreements predate the EU.

Rubber stamping existing treaties for continued use outside of the EU would amount to practical common sense.

"And it means UK services, which can now access the whole of the EU’s single market (i.e. currently, the 28 member states plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway) relatively freely, would only be allowed the much more restricted access of the EU and UK’s commitments in the WTO."

A trade agreement should have been agreed on Day 1.

Most of the issues 3 YEARS after the EU referendum could have been solved on Day 1 IF Theresa May had negotiated in the interests of the UK peoples and not the EU bureacracy.
 
Last edited:
Not quite true is it ?

"On top of that, the UK would lose the benefit of free trade agreements it now has with countries such as
South Korea and Canada as a member of the EU. Therefore, more British imports and exports would face
tariffs."

That's down to individual countries to agree .. in fact you may find that these agreements stand anyway as some agreements predate the EU.

Rubber stamping existing treaties for continued us outside of the EU would amount to practical common sense.
Dunno, I'm no WTO expert. Link was for information, we won't know what will happen until it actually does, but in the meantime any agreements aren't going to happen overnight.

I read this http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/flexcit.pdf years ago, and it seemed to make sense. However as the author points out, a proper plan is the only way to prevent leaving the EU being a failure.
 
The truth of the matter is Teresa May had no prior experience of trade nor diplomacy, she did a carp job in the home office and should never have been PM but 'my turn, I was home sec'....

She is a useless woman and should never have taken the fudging job.

MPs want to remain in the EU because it shifts responsibility away from them and they can always find a fudging job with the EU and be paid huge salaries and pensions. They all need to be sacked.
 

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