Johnes :-(

[In the pit]

There seems to be a lot of bad advice floating about on this thread .
We spent a couple of hours going through johnes with the vet for our milk buyer
When cows shed johnes it goes in waves so testing the sh!t today and it's low but test it next week and it could have risen.
Our cows never scour at calving but tend to start scouring when we are in our service period ( block calves)
PASTURISATION does not kill johnes

 

[Poorbuthappy]

There seems to be a lot of bad advice floating about on this thread .
We spent a couple of hours going through johnes with the vet for our milk buyer
When cows shed johnes it goes in waves so testing the sh!t today and it's low but test it next week and it could have risen.
Our cows never scour at calving but tend to start scouring when we are in our service period ( block calves)
PASTURISATION does not kill johnes

Guess that's partly aimed at me and I hold my hands up and say I'm learning.
Are you saying testing dung is a waste of time? If it's low but still present surely that's enough to say get rid?
As I say, I'm learning and all ears to any advice. Very aware it's a difficult disease to test for and false negatives are quite possible, and I think false positives? To the same extent?

 

[Poorbuthappy]

I would add I'm in the "fortunate" position of being over stocked so can afford to cull out anything that's dubious.

 

[In the pit]

http://crohns.org/media/wisc_ag1.htm

 

[In the pit]

If a animal test positive it is positive
If it test negative it can still be positive but the disease isn't showing up
Any scouring cow needs to be gone straight away

 

[sidjon]

There seems to be a lot of bad advice floating about on this thread .
We spent a couple of hours going through johnes with the vet for our milk buyer
When cows shed johnes it goes in waves so testing the sh!t today and it's low but test it next week and it could have risen.
Our cows never scour at calving but tend to start scouring when we are in our service period ( block calves)
PASTURISATION does not kill johnes

Done the same with our vet and milk powder which has johnes cells in it are rejected for human consumption and turned in to feed for animals, so milk powder isn't as safe as it made out to be for calves.

 

[kill]

Done the same with our vet and milk powder which has johnes cells in it are rejected for human consumption and turned in to feed for animals, so milk powder isn't as safe as it made out to be for calves.

Makes me wonder how anyone can ever feed calves safely then?
Pooled milk is definitely a dangerous way.
Selective cows after testing and only low risk cows milk used then I guess.

 

[In the pit]

We just can't win

 

[sidjon]

Makes me wonder how anyone can ever feed calves safely then?
Pooled milk is definitely a dangerous way.
Selective cows after testing and only low risk cows milk used then I guess.

Vet was tell me, low risk cows from monitored herd is the best of the bad bunch, had thought about milk powder, but with non monitored milk powder in intervention and most going for feed could be a ticking time bomb

 

[Happy]

Thanks for all the input,
@Happy did you have a real bad problem or have you been testing for 16 years to be accredited?

@ploughman1963 it is very tempting to keep her for a lactation on the last few milkings she's going well, just strike's me as a risk when the all others are so low, if I had 20 with it I might be thinking very differently.....
What's j5?

Any advice on interpreting the test @ 50-60 days after a tb test? I assume as the tb test lifts the percentage? Then average out the herd and anything that is higher is a risk?

Anyone on here knocked up a pasturizer for calves, neighbor's got one after a real rough tb test (30 calves from one tb high cell count cow ) it looked to me like a bucket in a bucket with some heating elements and a controller!

Yes.
Was getting 3-4 cases of johnes a year prior to starting testing and would then be getting about the same number of positives the first 3-4 years of testing.
Not had any the past 3 years but did have a spell of being clear for a couple of years then a single positive the following year.

Some borderline positives we carry out a dung culture test on. Do remember one of them coming back negative but then a very high positive in blood test 2 or 3 years later.

A very slow process but in saying that we have never seen a clinical case of it since starting testing so it does pick them up if you keep at it.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

If a animal test positive it is positive

Not according to SAC.
"Where animals test positive for antibody in a milk sample, or positive close to the cut off threshold with a blood sample, if negative on subsequent blood antibody ELISA test, then it should not be considered a test positive animal."
Not an exact quote in the interest of brevity.

 

[Water Wheel]

Our experience with NMR milk testing is a single high reading can be a false reading , especially from fresh calved cows. Have a couple of cows here that have had a single result above 80 followed by 3 years of single figure readings.
We have stopped testing cows for the 2 weeks post calving.

 

[Slowcow]

Johnes milk powder !

It does seem like a real problem coming, it a way I'm glad ours were so positive at least maybe removes doubt, they were 6 months from tb test too.

I think those two are off, soon. The runny one is isolated in a shed on her own, it does seem feasible that they might not have been shedding when the calves had their colostrum last so I think the calf's will stay and be tested before service if possible?!

Might be on top of it in 3 years if I'm lucky ........?

Cheers

 

[lazy farmer]

Cow cleanliness at calving is vital here for example we have a shed with 91 cubicles and a deep litter calving pad. No high Johnes cows go inthat shed at all thus reducing the risk of getting contaminated material in their mouths just after birth. We are also feeing every calve we can “clean” colostrum.
Potential Johnes cows calve In a different shed.

 

[Llmmm]

We did a blood test as firstly I was told it was more accurate, we were coming up to a contiguous tb test with a fair few dry cows and wanted to test whole herd.

Yep if they get a high test result they be off to west Devon, no way I'm going to sell someone else a problem, knowingly anyway!

Organic milk powder £££££££
Think a pasturizer be cheaper!

Pasteurising is a waste of time small particles of muck in milk will carry the disease and pasteurising has no effect on it

 

[ploughman1963]

There seems to be a lot of bad advice floating about on this thread .
We spent a couple of hours going through johnes with the vet for our milk buyer
When cows shed johnes it goes in waves so testing the sh!t today and it's low but test it next week and it could have risen.
Our cows never scour at calving but tend to start scouring when we are in our service period ( block calves)
PASTURISATION does not kill johnes

I agree with much of what you say - but the advice is obviously not limited to farmers - our vet (who is something of a leader in addressing this) says that pasteurisation is not guaranteed to prevent johnes but by choosing which cows you take replacements milk from and using pasteurisation you are significantly reducing the risk of transfer. That’s is how I see us tackling this - reducing risk of contamination at every stage

 

[Llmmm]

I agree with much of what you say - but the advice is obviously not limited to farmers - our vet (who is something of a leader in addressing this) says that pasteurisation is not guaranteed to prevent johnes but by choosing which cows you take replacements milk from and using pasteurisation you are significantly reducing the risk of transfer. That’s is how I see us tackling this - reducing risk of contamination at every stage

But small pieces of manure can contaminate the udder of a healthy cow and end up in colostrum

 

[ploughman1963]

But small pieces of manure can contaminate the udder of a healthy cow and end up in colostrum

Yes, potentially- so you do all you can to limit the risk - separate known risk cows at drying off, only take colostrum from low score (green ) cows, pasteurise colostrum or milk which is not guaranteed but will reduce the risk. We’ve been actively working to control johnes for over 5 years now without mass culling and it has made a big difference. I see it as a case of managing the problem and reducing risks at as many stages as I can - alternative is mass cull or ignore it?

 

[lazy farmer]

Yes, potentially- so you do all you can to limit the risk - separate known risk cows at drying off, only take colostrum from low score (green ) cows, pasteurise colostrum or milk which is not guaranteed but will reduce the risk. We’ve been actively working to control johnes for over 5 years now without mass culling and it has made a big difference. I see it as a case of managing the problem and reducing risks at as many stages as I can - alternative is mass cull or ignore it?

Does that also mean you do not take colostrum for replacements from heifers ?

 

[ploughman1963]

Does that also mean you do not take colostrum for replacements from heifers ?

Yes