Kubota tractors.

[Barleycorn]

Fact, Kvernland, Great Plains, plenty more money to invest, but it does make you wonder why they are going for the ag sector, when I would have thought leisure would have been a better market.

 

[Cowabunga]

Fact, Kvernland, Great Plains, plenty more money to invest, but it does make you wonder why they are going for the ag sector, when I would have thought leisure would have been a better market.

They have a very high market share in the groundscare, leisure and light utility market in tractors and mowers. Also with mini-diggers. Big agriculture is where they have yet to make a serious play, so the only way is up. Even taking a small market share of the worldwide market will shift thousands of their engines and axles, even if they eventually decide to buy an established manufacturer. That would make sense, even if some of the minor greenchop range clashed. They are also nowhere on the green and gold harvest market. One good investment would buy them the lot and they could rebrand it all as Kubota in many markets, potentially selling 30,000 per year in the short term, all with their own engines and GIMA transmissions. That would be a hell of a shock for at least one long established brand and large corporation.

 

[Barleycorn]

I'm not sure that they would go for the GIMA transaxles, as I can't see them cooperating with AGCO.
I think that they are only using ZF as a stopgap, they like to make their stuff 'in house'.

 

[Cowabunga]

I'm not sure that they would go for the GIMA transaxles, as I can't see them cooperating with AGCO.
I think that they are only using ZF as a stopgap, they like to make their stuff 'in house'.

If they perchance owned Claas they would own half of GIMA. They would just build tractors at LeMans and probably paint them orange and hopefully restyle them. At least they would then only share their transmissions with one competitor brand instead of half a dozen, as they currently do with the ZF.
Not sure what Claas use for a CVT. Something tells me that they don't use ZF but their own, in which case it would be an even bigger coup for Kubota to own it all.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

Just reading the writeup in the FG for the new M7171 Premium KVT, 170 hp vario.

With a 5-year, 5000 hour warranty, the retail price stands at £113,000, so that probably translates an on-farm price of about £80,000. They're definitely not aiming for the bargain end of the market!!

As the new kid on the block, can it really justify that premium price tag though?

 

[Darren]

The 5 year warranty has to be paid for somehow. I'd be more worried about residual value.

 

[sheepmatilda]

That is the big unknown !

 

[Cowabunga]

Just reading the writeup in the FG for the new M7171 Premium KVT, 170 hp vario.

With a 5-year, 5000 hour warranty, the retail price stands at £113,000, so that probably translates an on-farm price of about £80,000. They're definitely not aiming for the bargain end of the market!!

As the new kid on the block, can it really justify that premium price tag though?

You really should compare it with equivalent models from other brands. You cannot get more equivalent than McCormick and Deutz, because they share the majority of major components. The Kubota has four cylinder engine while the McC is fitted with the renowned and respected FPT six cylinder.
The question is, what is the selling price of the McC with a five year warranty?

 

[same crap different day]

Hello everyone, doing a little personal research.
I'm interested in seeing how common Kubota tractors are on farms or small holdings. For those that have them and/or use them, what are your overall impression of them.

Got a mgx110 with loader 20 months old just turned 1400 hrs , one warranty claim the small pin to lock the door from inside coat pocket broke it, 5 figures less than case jd and massey , massey and case same age came to same valley case has gone massey had large repair bills , jd is a cut above but £££££

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

You really should compare it with equivalent models from other brands. You cannot get more equivalent than McCormick and Deutz, because they share the majority of major components. The Kubota has four cylinder engine while the McC is fitted with the renowned and respected FPT six cylinder.
The question is, what is the selling price of the McC with a five year warranty?

I wasn't actually thinking SDF and McC, I was thinking at £80K or thereabouts, they're practically at JD and Fendt money, or not shy of.

 

[Cowabunga]

I wasn't actually thinking SDF and McC, I was thinking at £80K or thereabouts, they're practically at JD and Fendt money, or not shy of.

They may well be but mechanically and apart from a potentially cheaper four cylinder engine, the Kubota is virtually identical to McC, sharing the same model of transmission as far as I can see. I wonder whether Kubota will use the old model transaxle or the very latest and recently introduced when it comes to the ZF semi-powershifters? Also wonder whether the CVT will sell with a Kubota name when it has such a poor reputation when used in the Deere? Perhaps the new paintwork and Kubota badge on the bonnet will make all the difference?

 

[Jim B]

Kubota are using the latest generation of ZF CVT, the Terramatic, but not the yet to be released ZF Terrapower powershift transmission. It is well documented the ZF Eccom problems are associated more with JD, other manufacturers using it have experienced few issues. The main reason is JD sharing the same oil with the brakes and other services, and a lack of filtration. Other brands use separate oil for the transmission, or at least have much more in the way if filtration.

I think it's highly unlikely Kubota would buy Claas; they can develop tractors in a relatively short timescale themselves, and haven't bought a massive factory just for these few models.I doubt they see much of a prospect in the GIMA transaxle.

I think the main reason for using the 4 cylinder engine is just because they can, and it performs very well. Because they wanted to get into this market quickly they probably didn't have the time to develop a 6 cylinder.

I'd agree with Barleycorn's suggestion that they are using the ZF transaxle, and more than likely the other non Kubota components as a stop gap. There are probably Japanese engineers reverse engineering and improving ZF designs as we speak! Probably a 6 cylinder engine too...!

As for selling price a fully loaded M7171 KVT, it would cost significantly less than £80,000 on farm. Don't forget it's Tier 4 final (not all competition are using T4f engines yet) and a comprehensive manufacturer warranty vs some the competition. Dare I say it they might have to look buy deals to get established?

 

[Cowabunga]

So they don't need Claas because they can develop their own engines and drivetrains in short order yet not in the several years they have been developing their new range that use a four cylinder engine [nothing wrong with that as long as it performs and is economical] and where they fit off the peg ZF transaxles. It should be a perfectly good tractor but is it going to sell at a premium over McCormick/Landini or Deutz? If so, how do they justify a premium price? Great for them if they can move metal at a substantially greater profit margin than those rivals of course. That's a neat trick that every brand aspires to but few manage.



The reason that Eccom failures are associated with Deere has probably more to do with the fact that JD have sold shed-loads more of them than all others combined. They might well have had filtration issues early on, but I can't believe that they would not have rectified that situation years ago. However it is probably too late for the transmission and only throwing mud at Deere's installation can hope to rectify its reputation for other brands who fit it. They fit it because it is available off the shelf ready to go of course. Little if any development cost, only a purchase cost for each unit they manage to sell.
I'm sure its a perfectly good transmission these days of course. But the fact remains one can buy the same transaxle with a superb economical FPT engine from McCormick in both semi-powershift and CVT versions. or with a Deutz engine in green.

 

[jimmer]

really !!!! 170hp out a four pot

let six tin cans bounce up and down nice and steadily , rather than scream the pants off of four

they were power harrowing with the fendt 415 here yesterday , i felt sorry for it , and i am a use it and abuse it tractor man

 

[Darren]

So they don't need Claas because they can develop their own engines and drivetrains in short order yet not in the several years they have been developing their new range that use a four cylinder engine [nothing wrong with that as long as it performs and is economical] and where they fit off the peg ZF transaxles. It should be a perfectly good tractor but is it going to sell at a premium over McCormick/Landini or Deutz? If so, how do they justify a premium price? Great for them if they can move metal at a substantially greater profit margin than those rivals of course. That's a neat trick that every brand aspires to but few manage.



The reason that Eccom failures are associated with Deere has probably more to do with the fact that JD have sold shed-loads more of them than all others combined. They might well have had filtration issues early on, but I can't believe that they would not have rectified that situation years ago. However it is probably too late for the transmission and only throwing mud at Deere's installation can hope to rectify its reputation for other brands who fit it. They fit it because it is available off the shelf ready to go of course. Little if any development cost, only a purchase cost for each unit they manage to sell.
I'm sure its a perfectly good transmission these days of course. But the fact remains one can buy the same transaxle with a superb economical FPT engine from McCormick in both semi-powershift and CVT versions. or with a Deutz engine in green.

Kubota vs Deutz / Mc Cormick success will depend largely on dealer network. Deutz as we know is pretty thin on the ground and Mc Cormick, especially in our area is few and far apart.

 

[Cowabunga]

really !!!! 170hp out a four pot

let six tin cans bounce up and down nice and steadily , rather than scream the pants off of four

they were power harrowing with the fendt 415 here yesterday , i felt sorry for it , and i am a use it and abuse it tractor man

I don't get that. If it was on the power harrow it would be flat out whether a four cylinder or six. Revs and absolute piston speed would be identical regardless.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

I don't get that. If it was on the power harrow it would be flat out whether a four cylinder or six. Revs and absolute piston speed would be identical regardless.

Why bring logic into it?

A long stroke 6 at the same revs would actually have higher piston speed than a short stroke 4.

The 6 would also have a higher reciprocating mass, higher pumping loss and more internal friction, at the same displacement. The 6 though has better natural harmonic balance.

A 4 and 6 with the same bore/stroke however, running the same boost and fueling will have exactly the same Brake Mean Effective Pressure. That's why a 240 HP 6-cylinder 724 Fendt has the same power per cube as a 165 HP 4-cylinder 516 unit. Both engines are working equally as hard at the same revs.

 

[Recoil]

Why bring logic into it?

A long stroke 6 at the same revs would actually have higher piston speed than a short stroke 4.

The 6 would also have a higher reciprocating mass, higher pumping loss and more internal friction, at the same displacement. The 6 though has better natural harmonic balance.

A 4 and 6 with the same bore/stroke however, running the same boost and fueling will have exactly the same Brake Mean Effective Pressure. That's why a 240 HP 6-cylinder 724 Fendt has the same power per cube as a 165 HP 4-cylinder 516 unit. Both engines are working equally as hard at the same revs.

I was just about to say that!

 

[jimmer]

yet in reality , put a 10ft mower on a 3050 , and the same on a 2850 , and i know which one will purr along and which one will be struggling to keep the pto revs up at the same speed

 

[Barleycorn]

I'm afraid you are a dinosaur like me.
With modern computer controlled fuel injection a four cylinder engine can be set to mimic a six. We have a four cylinder Valtra and it pulls every bit as well as the six cylinder NH it replaced.
The Kubota engine is over 6 litres which is a hell of a lump for 4 cylinders, personally I think that it will pull like a train, but will let you know as we are having a demo in a fortnight.
I know a Gardner engine would be wonderful in a tractor but time moves on and it ain't going to happen any more.