Labour lies?

[Danllan]

So, despite everyone in the country thinking they did - including, in fact especially, the students - Jeremy Corbyn has now told us that Labour did not promise to write off student debts, hmm, it's starting...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...-i-never-said-we-would-write-off-student-debt

 

[RobFZS]

Those who voted for him will swear blind they knew he wasn't pledging that

The same would happen if he had won and he'd literally done half of what he promised

'anything but the tories is their mantra, even if the guy they voted for is a lying barsteward, he's a nice lying barsteward

 

[Ashtree]

They are all lying bastrwards. Well, with the exception of Farage and Trump. ..... and Putin.

 

[Hindsight]

So, despite everyone in the country thinking they did - including, in fact especially, the students - Jeremy Corbyn has now told us that Labour did not promise to write off student debts, hmm, it's starting...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...-i-never-said-we-would-write-off-student-debt

I consider most if not all politicians regardless of party allegiances have great difficulty telling the 'real' truth and giving a straight answer. And close inspection of the statement or speech usually does show they have not lied as such but there is often an inference drawn from a political statement or speech - which guides opinion but allows the 'sands to shift' at a later stage if required. Goes with the territory.

Last week John McDonnel reined back by saying it was a Labour ambition to reduce the impact of student debt. I have an ambition to run a marathon and to that effect I do jog occasionally in preparation (amble really) but doubt I will ever run one now. And so with student debt - all political parties know they have to do something - so expect some small measures to be put in place by all parties before the next general election - but doubt very much if writing off the debt will be among them. The interest rate is first thing to look at.

As ever I quite like the quote (used by the Mogg last week) if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it very likely is a duck.

 

[Ashtree]

Whilst the politicians may have great difficulty telling the truth, the electorate on the other hand can have quite a degree of difficulty in accepting the truth!!
Why bother wasting the truth on the people in that case.

 

[RobFZS]

Whilst the politicians may have great difficulty telling the truth, the electorate on the other hand can have quite a degree of difficulty in accepting the truth!!
Why bother wasting the truth on the people in that case.

Why you think vote leave got away with that 350 million rubbish, mostly because the whole membership of the eu has been built on lies, an election is now built on who can lie the most and deal with the consequences when you're in power , usually other than a few talking heads having a moan, there's not many

the tories tried to be honest with the public on public finances and social care and 40% of people voted for labour

I remember during the referendum, the government had one of their many broadcasts that took up the whole news cycle, vote leave moaned about it as it was some blatant lie/ misinterpretation and Gideon says' don't moan about process just because you're losing' or something similar along the lines, sums it all up really

 

[dstudent]

So, despite everyone in the country thinking they did - including, in fact especially, the students - Jeremy Corbyn has now told us that Labour did not promise to write off student debts, hmm, it's starting...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-pol...-i-never-said-we-would-write-off-student-debt

Emm but he didn t did he? I don t know of any student past or present who thought he was cancelling their debts, I did not see, read or was lead to believe at any time during the election or even before that, that he and labour were running on a cancelling all student debts platform.
I mean the interview is pretty clear right, he explained exactly what he said and meant, at which point he is telling lies?, it is all in black and white and recorded, 'looking at ways to alleviate the debt burden', and 'finding a way to deal with it' does not mean by any stretch of imagination ' we are cancelling past debts', he was very cautions of making such an assertion as he explained in the interview , that is why it s not in the manifesto,
It s a non story sorry, just another attack, unsubstantiated misleading story to discredit the man.

 

[dstudent]

Ok I found the actual answer Corbyn gave on the NME interview, make of it what you will:
NME: You’ve pledged to scrap tuition fees, which has gone down well. But it’s also kicked up a question for people who already have that debt, or people who are currently in university. What does it mean for people who’ve already been paying £9,000 a year?

JC: “First of all, we want to get rid of student fees altogether. We’ll do it as soon as we get in, and we’ll then introduce legislation to ensure that any student going from the 2017-18 academic year will not pay fees. They will pay them, but we’ll rebate them when we’ve got the legislation through – that’s fundamentally the principle behind it. Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage – I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this – but I’m very well aware of that problem. And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”

 

[Hindsight]

Ok I found the actual answer Corbyn gave on the NME interview, make of it what you will:
NME: You’ve pledged to scrap tuition fees, which has gone down well. But it’s also kicked up a question for people who already have that debt, or people who are currently in university. What does it mean for people who’ve already been paying £9,000 a year?

JC: “First of all, we want to get rid of student fees altogether. We’ll do it as soon as we get in, and we’ll then introduce legislation to ensure that any student going from the 2017-18 academic year will not pay fees. They will pay them, but we’ll rebate them when we’ve got the legislation through – that’s fundamentally the principle behind it. Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage – I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this – but I’m very well aware of that problem. And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”

Thank you for digging that out - saved me the job of finding it. I have a son just completed 4 year university course and a daughter about to embark this autumn. This will be a major political issue at the next election comparable with the social care issue. Irrespective of whether Corbyn lied or not this generation have been alerted to what political pressure can do and I expect them to become increasingly mobilised and vocal. Hey ho.

 

[RobFZS]

Ok I found the actual answer Corbyn gave on the NME interview, make of it what you will:
NME: You’ve pledged to scrap tuition fees, which has gone down well. But it’s also kicked up a question for people who already have that debt, or people who are currently in university. What does it mean for people who’ve already been paying £9,000 a year?

JC: “First of all, we want to get rid of student fees altogether. We’ll do it as soon as we get in, and we’ll then introduce legislation to ensure that any student going from the 2017-18 academic year will not pay fees. They will pay them, but we’ll rebate them when we’ve got the legislation through – that’s fundamentally the principle behind it. Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage – I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this – but I’m very well aware of that problem. And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”

thats the interview that all the socialists shared round on facebook and simply said labour were going to cancel the debt

The very same people said if you vote tory, porn is going to be banned, so make of it what you will of momentum and the labour campaign on social media.

 

[Ashtree]

thats the interview that all the socialists shared round on facebook and simply said labour were going to cancel the debt

The very same people said if you vote tory, porn is going to be banned, so make of it what you will of momentum and the labour campaign on social media.

Every party has a red bus!

 

[Danllan]

Ok I found the actual answer Corbyn gave on the NME interview, make of it what you will:
NME: You’ve pledged to scrap tuition fees, which has gone down well. But it’s also kicked up a question for people who already have that debt, or people who are currently in university. What does it mean for people who’ve already been paying £9,000 a year?

JC: “First of all, we want to get rid of student fees altogether. We’ll do it as soon as we get in, and we’ll then introduce legislation to ensure that any student going from the 2017-18 academic year will not pay fees. They will pay them, but we’ll rebate them when we’ve got the legislation through – that’s fundamentally the principle behind it. Yes, there is a block of those that currently have a massive debt, and I’m looking at ways that we could reduce that, ameliorate that, lengthen the period of paying it off, or some other means of reducing that debt burden. I don’t have the simple answer for it at this stage – I don’t think anybody would expect me to, because this election was called unexpectedly; we had two weeks to prepare all of this – but I’m very well aware of that problem. And I don’t see why those that had the historical misfortune to be at university during the £9,000 period should be burdened excessively compared to those that went before or those that come after. I will deal with it.”

Sorry for a late reply, prep'ing a newly cleared 'field' for some sheep...

Right, the quote / point I was going to make to you after reading your first post is contained in your second post. The last part, that I have underlined, is the key and I will be fascinated to know what you can or will make of it other than to be, at the very least, an implicit statement of intent to write off student debts, past and present.

Now, I pay attention to politics pretty closely and I have a fair eye for picking out political lacunae, which most intelligent politicians of all parties will leave for themselves whenever possible. The famous £350m for the NHS during the EU referendum is a case in point; there is no example of a senior Leave figure saying that such a sum would go to the NHS, the inference was taken up by the Remain side and some of the media. But nobody actually said it would happen.

Whereas, in the instance under discussion, Mr Corbyn has said that students, past, present and future will have their debt dealt with by him' I look forward to reading what you will make of that.

 

[Hindsight]

Sorry for a late reply, prep'ing a newly cleared 'field' for some sheep...

Right, the quote / point I was going to make to you after reading your first post is contained in your second post. The last part, that I have underlined, is the key and I will be fascinated to know what you can or will make of it other than to be, at the very least, an implicit statement of intent to write off student debts, past and present.

Now, I pay attention to politics pretty closely and I have a fair eye for picking out political lacunae, which most intelligent politicians of all parties will leave for themselves whenever possible. The famous £350m for the NHS during the EU referendum is a case in point; there is no example of a senior Leave figure saying that such a sum would go to the NHS, the inference was taken up by the Remain side and some of the media. But nobody actually said it would happen.

Whereas, in the instance under discussion, Mr Corbyn has said that students, past, present and future will have their debt dealt with by him' I look forward to reading what you will make of that.

Yes but in the underlined bit he said 'should not be burdened excessively... I will deal with it' but never actually said going to write it off although I concur implication of the statement is likely to be interpreted as such. He could do something with payments etc. I think Corbyn and McDonnel are clever old beggars and would have thought it through before making the statement in NME. Anyway we shall find out - but it has struck a chord with my 18 and 23 year olds - they have no idea about the winter of discontent so little point mentioning this to them!!

 

[renewablejohn]

This will become Corbyns Clegg moment with students making him unelectable.

 

[dstudent]

Sorry for a late reply, prep'ing a newly cleared 'field' for some sheep...

Right, the quote / point I was going to make to you after reading your first post is contained in your second post. The last part, that I have underlined, is the key and I will be fascinated to know what you can or will make of it other than to be, at the very least, an implicit statement of intent to write off student debts, past and present.

Now, I pay attention to politics pretty closely and I have a fair eye for picking out political lacunae, which most intelligent politicians of all parties will leave for themselves whenever possible. The famous £350m for the NHS during the EU referendum is a case in point; there is no example of a senior Leave figure saying that such a sum would go to the NHS, the inference was taken up by the Remain side and some of the media. But nobody actually said it would happen.

Whereas, in the instance under discussion, Mr Corbyn has said that students, past, present and future will have their debt dealt with by him' I look forward to reading what you will make of that.

I understand Farage had to backtrack on that promise publicly., however I will answer the rest tomorrow, sorry a bit tired now

 

[Hindsight]

Must confess I am a pretty simple bloke but I saw this in June 2016 and even an old cynic like me thought the Leave campaign meant what was written on the bus. But the hey ho they will all say anything to get elected - what egos.

 

[caveman]

I have just edited that comment out of my first post as its clearly upset you and that was not my intention.

I understand Farage had to backtrack on that promise publicly., however I will answer the rest tomorrow, sorry a bit tired now

What promise?
Is denying having any input into something back tracking or denying having any input?
Corbyn and Co could of made the detail in their policy clearer well before the general election when it became clear that it was being misinterpreted. But then............

 

[renewablejohn]

The bus was a simple statement based on Fact that we do contribute to the EU £350 million. What was wrong was linking to NHS, If it had read lets fund OURSELVES instead then there would have been no arguments as in reality thats what Brexit means.

 

[Danllan]

I understand Farage had to backtrack on that promise publicly., however I will answer the rest tomorrow, sorry a bit tired now

You won't be able to provide any evidence for your claim on Mr Farage's backtracking, because there is none. He was not part of that campaign, and never claimed that there would be £350m weekly for the NHS.

The bus showed two separate statements, the minds of others conflated them, very probably as was intended. But - and this is the point in this discussion - neither an explicit nor an implicit promise was made, unlike Mr Corbyn and the student fees.

Yes but in the underlined bit he said 'should not be burdened excessively... I will deal with it' but never actually said going to write it off although I concur implication of the statement is likely to be interpreted as such. He could do something with payments etc. I think Corbyn and McDonnel are clever old beggars and would have thought it through before making the statement in NME. Anyway we shall find out - but it has struck a chord with my 18 and 23 year olds - they have no idea about the winter of discontent so little point mentioning this to them!!

Mr Corbyn is not very bright - hence his on the record comments in this matter - but you'd be right in attributing Machiavellian traits to John McDonnel, he is pulling the strings across the Labour movement at the moment, both within the party and within Momentum (which is probably the more important of the two in electoral terms).

You have two students and say that there is little point in mentioning their own country's recent history to them... ; next you'll be telling me they will / have studied politics or history... and yet students generally* will often spout on about fascism and allude to the dictatorships of the middle 20th Century when referring to some modern politicians, and many of them couldn't even spell 'fascist'.

*not having a dig at your two unless it is definitely applicable to them

 

[dstudent]

What promise?
Is denying having any input into something back tracking or denying having any input?
Corbyn and Co could of made the detail in their policy clearer well before the general election when it became clear that it was being misinterpreted. But then............

Good you picked up on that.
Did he promise? Did he lie?
No he didn t, he didn t promise anything, he just made a suggestion, that money sent to the EU should be instead in supporting schools and health care, absolutly nothing wrong with that. He also admitted that the Leave campaign was wrong in the all 350/NHS pledge, as infact that was deceitful. It was Boris and Gove who toured with the bus and made the pledge, Farage openly admitted that he did not say anything untill after the referendum, as it would be like"shooting your own side in the back'.
However if you read the media at the time it was all ' he is back tracking' ' he s breaking the promise ' etc etc. When he really didn t promise or pledge anything himself.

Now we have Corbyn here, who made an interview on the 30th of May, answering people' questions, one question is about students' debt not fees. Student s debts was not in the manifesto, you read the interview, there is not promise or pledge of cancelling debts. At the time no media outlet and no one from the opposition said anything about he making such a promise.
But now TM and others have come out with this lie, it really must be a slow week in parliment, or more likely they are just, trying to distract people from the Brexit negotiations.
Any ways this is not about Farage, I only used him to show how easy it is to manipulate and misrapresent what people say.
However I used the picture with Boris J to counter @Danllan statement that no senior Leave figure made the £350 to the NHS pledge, well Boris and Gove did, I would think they are senior figures, and there is a bus to prove it.
Second point by Farage own words all this came from the Leave campaign.
There was not interference from the Remain side, they did it all by themselves