Large scale electrolysis

Have a client interested in this and starting to hear more about it on the circuit.

Has anyone had anything to do with this at a commercial scale?

Looks like water and a large amount of cheap electric are needed but what else?

How viable might it be?
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
Have a client interested in this and starting to hear more about it on the circuit.

Has anyone had anything to do with this at a commercial scale?

Looks like water and a large amount of cheap electric are needed but what else?

How viable might it be?
Oil refinery on east coast set up using a whole phase of wind farm in the North Sea. Its been set up for direct injection of Hydrogen into the high pressure gas grid. Eventual aim is for 20% of gas mix in gas pipelines to be hydrogen from renewable sources. You can get hydrogen "stations" but its a bit chicken and egg with number of vehicles wanting to use them unless you can find a ready made fleet of buses or hgv's. Injection into the gas grid would be my preferred option but then your into the cost of compressors etc.
 
Oil refinery on east coast set up using a whole phase of wind farm in the North Sea. Its been set up for direct injection of Hydrogen into the high pressure gas grid. Eventual aim is for 20% of gas mix in gas pipelines to be hydrogen from renewable sources. You can get hydrogen "stations" but its a bit chicken and egg with number of vehicles wanting to use them unless you can find a ready made fleet of buses or hgv's. Injection into the gas grid would be my preferred option but then your into the cost of compressors etc.


I thought you may know something about this!

This is for grid injection, that side of it is all in hand I’m told, it’s more about amount of electric and water needed and viability etc.
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs

HatsOff

Member
Mixed Farmer
There are a lot higher energy losses doing electrolysis compared to direct use of the electricity or even short term storage in lithium batteries.

kWh per kWh you'd be better off replacing gas cookers with induction hobs and electric cookers than injecting hydrogen into the grid.

For things like farm machinery and heavy industry, hydrogen could definitely play a role. But I can't see it replacing car vehicle batteries or natural gas heating.

Edit - unless we build a lot of nuclear power stations and they get hydrogen made overnight to soak up the spare energy. But that is years and years away.
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
There are a lot higher energy losses doing electrolysis compared to direct use of the electricity or even short term storage in lithium batteries.

kWh per kWh you'd be better off replacing gas cookers with induction hobs and electric cookers than injecting hydrogen into the grid.

For things like farm machinery and heavy industry, hydrogen could definitely play a role. But I can't see it replacing car vehicle batteries or natural gas heating.

Edit - unless we build a lot of nuclear power stations and they get hydrogen made overnight to soak up the spare energy. But that is years and years away.
This used to be the case but the method used by ITM is supposed to have far greater efficiency so that losses are now on par with battery charging and its far easier to inject hydrogen into an existing gas grid structure than have to invest in new battery infrastructure. Part of the reason for injecting into the gas grid is so that the hydrogen can be used as part of the natural gas heating supply. Thats why the figure of 20% is important as the current natural gas technology will handle upto 20% more hydrogen in the gas mix without the need for any modifications.
 
This used to be the case but the method used by ITM is supposed to have far greater efficiency so that losses are now on par with battery charging and its far easier to inject hydrogen into an existing gas grid structure than have to invest in new battery infrastructure. Part of the reason for injecting into the gas grid is so that the hydrogen can be used as part of the natural gas heating supply. Thats why the figure of 20% is important as the current natural gas technology will handle upto 20% more hydrogen in the gas mix without the need for any modifications.

The link suggested it as good as 80% efficiency.

The issue is having enough spare energy in a location close to a gas pipe with the capacity To take the hydrogen, can’t be that many location though?

Someone was talking the other day about how new gas boilers are now being designed to take a hydrogen blend so someone in government must be future planning?
 

renewablejohn

Member
Location
lancs
The link suggested it as good as 80% efficiency.

The issue is having enough spare energy in a location close to a gas pipe with the capacity To take the hydrogen, can’t be that many location though?

Someone was talking the other day about how new gas boilers are now being designed to take a hydrogen blend so someone in government must be future planning?
They have been working on the grid for a number of years to make it hydrogen ready so yes it is part of long term government policy. The pilot schemes have also been very successful.
 

Raumer

Member
They are also looking at using excess power form wind farms and solar panels to generate hydrogen. Keeping them running/producing power when the grid demand isn't there. Then store the hydrogen and either put in to the grid or straight in to a converted diesel engine that can run on the hydrogen. This would enable it to output power when the wind isn't blowing. Starting to even out the peaks and troughs.

Add in that there a number of projects looking at retrofitting engines to run on hydrogen either 100% or as dual fuel. As well as new engines in the pipeline for those applications where batteries do not make sense.
 
They are also looking at using excess power form wind farms and solar panels to generate hydrogen. Keeping them running/producing power when the grid demand isn't there. Then store the hydrogen and either put in to the grid or straight in to a converted diesel engine that can run on the hydrogen. This would enable it to output power when the wind isn't blowing. Starting to even out the peaks and troughs.

Add in that there a number of projects looking at retrofitting engines to run on hydrogen either 100% or as dual fuel. As well as new engines in the pipeline for those applications where batteries do not make sense.

This is what I’ve been hearing more about. Soaking up excess power to replace batteries which look rather constrained.

An emerging industry, will it take off though?
 

Raumer

Member
This is what I’ve been hearing more about. Soaking up excess power to replace batteries which look rather constrained.

An emerging industry, will it take off though?
I think it will take off. And definitely hoping it will, I'm chief engineer for a company that do Hydrogen injectors and control valves. So I am a little biased!

Interesting project around this idea just announced in Scotland:
 

scotston

Member
For me it has to take off unless they invent the 'Magic battery'. The power to weight ration of lithium doesn't work in an engine bigger than say 3l, maybe even 2.5l. So the only way to drive tractors and larger gear must be hydrogen. But our government are confident that building 7 nuclear power stations is going to solve the gap between now and the car diesel ban in 2030? Not engineering policy but politics. Or bollitics more like.
 
Think there is a town in japan using exclusively this.

Talk of siting these next to service stations to supply direct too.

Needs a joined up approach though which can be a big ask at times here in 🇬🇧
 

scotston

Member
100% agree. The government have stated a ban on diesel but have not described how they intend to upgrade the grid to allow every person to charge their car when they come home at night. Where I am, if the local village of 100 folk all plugged their Tesla's in, the grid would melt. Moving energy supply close to use avoids large scale infrastructure but hydrogen production is inefficient and expensive. Just now. It needs, like all other forms of energy, a helping hand to get it off the ground.
 

HatsOff

Member
Mixed Farmer
This used to be the case but the method used by ITM is supposed to have far greater efficiency so that losses are now on par with battery charging and its far easier to inject hydrogen into an existing gas grid structure than have to invest in new battery infrastructure. Part of the reason for injecting into the gas grid is so that the hydrogen can be used as part of the natural gas heating supply. Thats why the figure of 20% is important as the current natural gas technology will handle upto 20% more hydrogen in the gas mix without the need for any modifications.
Yeah but you lose more again at the other end as well.

I'm not against hydrogen - it'll almost certainly have many applications. But I just don't see it out competing car batteries and heat pumps when the most limited resource is energy generation.
 

scotston

Member
Yeah but you lose more again at the other end as well.

I'm not against hydrogen - it'll almost certainly have many applications. But I just don't see it out competing car batteries and heat pumps when the most limited resource is energy generation.
Batteries are indeed ideal for small scale cars and heat pumps for houses but for everyone to have these the grid needs a whole lot of work. Then when you move up one notch of scale - larger buildings/poorly insulated you need an alternative to gas or oil. The car-truck-excavator-lithium mining machines are also not suitable battery uses. Unless battery tech has a step change, not the slow curve improvement we currently see. Hydrogen is the fundamental element in the universe. There has to be a solution more useful to the planet than the Manhattan project...
 
Batteries are indeed ideal for small scale cars and heat pumps for houses but for everyone to have these the grid needs a whole lot of work. Then when you move up one notch of scale - larger buildings/poorly insulated you need an alternative to gas or oil. The car-truck-excavator-lithium mining machines are also not suitable battery uses. Unless battery tech has a step change, not the slow curve improvement we currently see. Hydrogen is the fundamental element in the universe. There has to be a solution more useful to the planet than the Manhattan project...

Haven’t JCB launched kit that runs of hydrogen now?
 

f0ster

Member
you also have the issue of brittle steel when hydrogen is stored under pressure, it permeates in to the steel making it brittle. I was wondering how high the pressure has to be for this to take place, a lot of the gas grid is still steel pipes
 
you also have the issue of brittle steel when hydrogen is stored under pressure, it permeates in to the steel making it brittle. I was wondering how high the pressure has to be for this to take place, a lot of the gas grid is still steel pipes

Didn’t know that.

If they are only watering down the gas by 20% maybe that’s in tolerance?
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 77 43.5%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 62 35.0%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 28 15.8%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 4 2.3%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,286
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top