Legumes

[Lowland1]

May not suit most English conditions. But Lucerne is the king of legumes in my opinion. Tolerates dry and extreme heat(will happily just sit there and do nothing...but it won't die). Then a good rain or an irrigation and the growth is phenomenal. Just simply doesn't tolerate water logging So if you have free draining higher ground, that's what I would look at.

Doesn’t like too much water for sure. We’ve just taken on a centre pivot thats been lucerne for ten years cut monthly and we still have it in our crops. There’s a lot grown on the Lincolnshire heath and my cousins family grow a fair acreage for drying on some heavier land in Lincolnshire so it might be tougher than you think in colder climes.

 

[Bury the Trash]

Doesn’t like to much water for sure. We’ve just taken on a centre pivot thats been lucerne for ten years cut monthly and we still have it in our crops. There’s a lot grown on the Lincolnshire heath and my cousins family grow a fair acreage for drying on some heavier land in Lincolnshire so it might be tougher than you think in colder climes.

It likes water as much as any potentially big vegetative plant , what is doesnt like is having more than it can use for any length of time around its feet.
also its like any plant for max production deeper the soil and fertility the better for yield.

 

[Kevtherev]

I've tried overseeding clover but there is simply too much grass growth in the autumn here in the SW. Clover just gets swamped.I've got a grant for a direct drill. Hoping to buy a sim-tech with idea being the T-slot will back the grass off enough for the clover to get established.
@Kevtherev do you still have your Duncan ? Any tips appreciated.

Yes still got it and do a fair bit with it
Send me a PM if you like

 

[som farmer]

Watch out for bloat. My old neighbour grew some and found several dead deer on his.

that is a worry, l lost our first cow to bloat, on clover, 2 months ago, bloody thing was meant to be in the yard. Just shows how clover has kept growing, over winter though.

 

[Lowland1]

It likes water as much as any potentially big vegetative plant , what is doesnt like is having more than it can use for any length of time around its feet.
also its like any plant for max production deeper the soil and fertility the better for yield.

Anerobic conditions i should have said. We grew a lot in Sudan but wet weather killed it quicker than dry weather. People are talking of bloat but we have large herds of antelope grazing it everyday and i’ve never seen any bloated ones.

 

[Bury the Trash]

Anerobic conditions i should have said. We grew a lot in Sudan but wet weather killed it quicker than dry weather. People are talking of bloat but we have large herds of antelope grazing it everyday and i’ve never seen any bloated ones.

I never had a case of bloat in sheep either when i grazed it , Doug Avery did mind you ,when he took the big step moving from conserving it to grazing it, with Ewes, lost several at the start.

 

[som farmer]

wonder how grazing lucerne, differs from 'normal' lucerne. But lucerne is a quality, high protein feed, it really should be utilised more. We only stopped growing it because we didn't have enough acres for, maize, lucerne, silage grass, and grazing grass, we chose maize.
We grow r/clover leys for silage, bales came in around the 19% protein mark.

 

[Kevtherev]

Friend has a avatar DD wonder if that would work? Or too deep?

Should be fine as long as drilling depth is kept an eye on.

 

[andybk]

Should be fine as long as drilling depth is kept an eye on.

clover needs to be on surface really

 

[neilo]

Friend has a avatar DD wonder if that would work? Or too deep?

Just lob it on with a slug Pelleter, graze and pray for rain. What you save on drilling cost will buy another couple of kg of clover seed per acre.

My best results have always been by broadcasting ahead of warm rain. I have my own DD here, but I still wouldn’t bother using it to drill clover, let alone if I was paying for a contractor.

 

[Kevtherev]

Just lob it on with a slug Pelleter, graze and pray for rain. What you save on drilling cost will buy another couple of kg of clover seed per acre.

My best results have always been by broadcasting ahead of warm rain. I have my own DD here, but I still wouldn’t bother using it to drill clover, let alone if I was paying for a contractor.

 

[Suffolk Serf]

Re lucerne, I remember a landowner had a grass field's headlands drilled with lucerne under the notion that it would help the all important game birds.
The grazing tenant's sheep were allowed onto the headlands after the lucerne had set seed. The result the following season was spots of lucerne plants growing all over the grass field where the sheep had crapped. @Breckland Boy might remember that.

 

[smallholder99]

Whats the best way to get clover back into a long term ley? Have a few fields i had to spray for docks.

heard of idea of mixing some clover in with cattle cake so seeds get a good start in dung pats, dont know if it works

 

[Samcowman]

Watch out for bloat. My old neighbour grew some and found several dead deer on his.

I think if the cattle are transitioned onto it and stay on it throughout the year then their gut biome adapts to the high quality feed. It would be the on/off grazing that would do the damage.

 

[cows sh#t me to tears]

fresh lush growth will cause bloat with Lucerne. Let it mature first if your not adding rumensin in the dairy. Bloat licks near troughs also helps. As does feeding them hay before they go in the paddock.
As for "grazing" v "normal" Lucerne. There is no difference. The only difference in Lucerne varieties is the winter activity number, which also can be used as a guide for grazing tolerance. The lower the number the more winter dormant the variety , and the less it tolerates grazing.

 

[Simon Chiles]

I've tried overseeding clover but there is simply too much grass growth in the autumn here in the SW. Clover just gets swamped.I've got a grant for a direct drill. Hoping to buy a sim-tech with idea being the T-slot will back the grass off enough for the clover to get established.
@Kevtherev do you still have your Duncan ? Any tips appreciated.

Direct drilling small seeds can be very variable, the biggest factor that affects the results is more often than not down to the operator. Having said that I’d personally direct drill every time over broadcasting, if you can be bothered to set your drill to provide accurate seed placement at the correct depth you’ll get good results. Direct drilling more grass or stitching in clover into an existing sward is a bit of an art, you need to hold back the existing ley so that it doesn’t out compete your new seeds. I’d graze the ley as tight as you can for about a week ( depending on weather ) after drilling, you need to take sheep off just before the new seedlings emerge. Timing of this part is critical, too long and you’ll damage the new seeds, not long enough will give the seedlings too much competition. If you can’t graze it hard enough you can hold back your ley with a sniff of roundup, just enough to check the grass without actually killing it. You’ll have to ask your agronomist for the rate as some grasses are more susceptible than others to roundup.
I stitched some red clover into a grass ley one year and the customer moaned because it didn’t grow. The following year he rang up and apologised because he had red clover growing in 6.5 inch rows. I still don’t know why it took a year to germinate.

 

[Kevtherev]

You will often find direct drilling into existing leys the results often aren’t apparent until the following year.

 

[Enry]

Yes no doubt a lot of seed merchants will be rubbing their hands promoting this new wonder

I am often amused by the word "profiteering" If I was a seed merchant with a stock of clover seed and suddenly everyone wants it...should I not put my price up? Is it any different to wheat price going from £150-200-£300+/t or milk from 26p to 30p to 40ppl??

We all do it - we want to sell for the most and buy for the least and anyone who puts price up must be profiteering

I'm sure those seed traders are muttering the infamous words of Corporal Jones in Dads Army - "They don't like it up em Sir, they don't like it up em"

 

[Enry]

Direct drilling small seeds can be very variable, the biggest factor that affects the results is more often than not down to the operator. Having said that I’d personally direct drill every time over broadcasting, if you can be bothered to set your drill to provide accurate seed placement at the correct depth you’ll get good results. Direct drilling more grass or stitching in clover into an existing sward is a bit of an art, you need to hold back the existing ley so that it doesn’t out compete your new seeds. I’d graze the ley as tight as you can for about a week ( depending on weather ) after drilling, you need to take sheep off just before the new seedlings emerge. Timing of this part is critical, too long and you’ll damage the new seeds, not long enough will give the seedlings too much competition. If you can’t graze it hard enough you can hold back your ley with a sniff of roundup, just enough to check the grass without actually killing it. You’ll have to ask your agronomist for the rate as some grasses are more susceptible than others to roundup.
I stitched some red clover into a grass ley one year and the customer moaned because it didn’t grow. The following year he rang up and apologised because he had red clover growing in 6.5 inch rows. I still don’t know why it took a year to germinate.

I agree - tine harrowing on is so hit and miss, when I buy seed I want it to grow and seed to soil contact is the fundamental thing we often neglect - a pass with rolls can be the more useful cultivation pass of all!

 

[Wisconsonian]

... grow a fair acreage for drying on some heavier land in Lincolnshire so it might be tougher than you think in colder climes.

Lucerne (alfalfa here) is not bothered by the cold, it's mostly winter killed by heaving, when the ground freezes and thaws repeatedly lifting the crown out of the ground, that's the unpreventable winter kill. It is also weakened by cutting in the window where it has time to regrow but not recover it's energy reserve before killing frost. -40 under a foot of snow is no problem. Saturated soil freezing and thawing this time of year will kill it.