Lifting pH without lime?

[wdah/him]

Makes you wonder how soil balanced itself prior to humans.

doest balance itself, more a case of strongest survives for the conditions. we have land that is natural grass and stuff, gets about 3/4 a bag of 23.0.10 fert if we cut it for silage, cattle will leave 'good' silage to eat this stuff but according to dept of agri i should have ploughed and have it more prdouctive, it leaves me profit and apart from some rushes that i spray every so often i might weed lick them this year but really it needs more grazing to manage better, it just keeps growing.

 

[Macsky]

Makes you wonder how soil balanced itself prior to humans.

I’m sure in many instances it didn’t. Much of what is green around these parts would probably naturally be more wet hill type/heather ground if it wasn’t for the graft of previous generations. I don’t buy into the modern ‘everything was wonderful before humans landed from another galaxy’ theme.

 

[beardface]

Also be interesting to find out how acidifying rainfall since the industrial revolution took off, has lowered soil pH over time.

 

[Global ovine]

Also be interesting to find out how acidifying rainfall since the industrial revolution took off, has lowered soil pH over time.

Since Margret Thatcher a lot of lime has been used and undoubtedly corrected any historical drops drops in pH due to heavy industry emissions. However those polluting times cured Sulphur deficiency for decades, but that situation is now largely over as S is quite soluble and has either leached out or been sold off in product.

 

[beardface]

Since Margret Thatcher a lot of lime has been used and undoubtedly corrected any historical drops drops in pH due to heavy industry emissions. However those polluting times cured Sulphur deficiency for decades, but that situation is now largely over as S is quite soluble and has either leached out or been sold off in product.

We're still a high sulphur area on grass due to deep soils I think. High moly too.

 

[czechmate]

We're still a high sulphur area on grass due to deep soils I think. High moly too.

Out if interest, what do you call a « deep soil »?

 

[beardface]

Out if interest, what do you call a « deep soil »?

Ours are clay/clay loam through to peaty organic soils. Havnt hit any bedrock when we've dug over 6ft deep. So pretty deep. I'd say anything over a couple of foot is deep.

We're near a city and a large town so would of had historically high levels industrial production and coal chimneys in close proximity.

I'm not saying that applying lime is wrong. I have some grassland let's that visibly look as though they need some. I just think given that resources are finite and sustainability in food production is the key. Rather than asking HOW we correct a deficiency or problem. We need to ask WHY it happened in the first place and whether a change in management practice could reduce the issue.

 

[czechmate]

Ours are clay/clay loam through to peaty organic soils. Havnt hit any bedrock when we've dug over 6ft deep. So pretty deep. I'd say anything over a couple of foot is deep.

We're near a city and a large town so would of had historically high levels industrial production and coal chimneys in close proximity.

I'm not saying that applying lime is wrong. I have some grassland let's that visibly look as though they need some. I just think given that resources are finite and sustainability in food production is the key. Rather than asking HOW we correct a deficiency or problem. We need to ask WHY it happened in the first place and whether a change in management practice could reduce the issue.

Sounds great. I’ve never seen soil more than 10”/1’ deep before getting to clay subsoil

 

[beardface]

Sounds great. I’ve never seen soil more than 10”/1’ deep before getting to clay subsoil

The peaty stuff is about 2ft before blue clay subsoil. Still soil though. No bed rock. Clay loam we have you could dig about 3 or 4ft before you hit the real heavy stuff. Locally there's an area called Sunk Island which is reclaimed sea. Soil is 0retty much the same from top to bottom. Most productive cereal land in the country. Just riddled with black grass now.

Interestingly the blue clay layer used to be the base of an ancient woodland that covered the whole area. A tidal surge came in and flattened it at some point. We still hit bog oaks from time to time. They all lay in the same direction. Prior to the Romans arriving hear it was a malarial bog.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Makes you wonder how soil balanced itself prior to humans.

Before land enclosures a lot of land around here was Moss Heather and Rushes

 

[beardface]

Before land enclosures a lot of land around here was Moss Heather and Rushes

And prior to that? Lands been here longer than we have. Will have changed more than once.

I'm not saying we shouldn't lime or improve land. Only are there ways to maintain production without reliance on continual inputs.

 

[Hilly]

Makes you wonder how soil balanced itself prior to humans.

Did it ?

 

[beardface]

Did it ?

It would of had a healthy biome yes.

 

[Muddyroads]

How do they manage in vast areas like the States and Oz? Is it less of an issue because of yields?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

And prior to that? Lands been here longer than we have. Will have changed more than once.

I'm not saying we shouldn't lime or improve land. Only are there ways to maintain production without reliance on continual inputs.

I can show you a field thats not been touched for 45 years . Its now tall scrub willow and brambles, before that it was rough grazing, before that it would have been corn and grass , the fields below it were burnt on village fires

 

[Macsky]

And prior to that? Lands been here longer than we have. Will have changed more than once.

I'm not saying we shouldn't lime or improve land. Only are there ways to maintain production without reliance on continual inputs.

I dug a hole in the peat on the hill with the tractor bucket the other day, 1-2’ of black peat, then the most beautiful looking brown earth underneath, I wondered how long ago it was when that was the top soil, and what had changed for the peat to form, major climate shift or something?

 

[renewablejohn]

Use wood ash here for lifting ph.

 

[Salopian_Will]

Long term,it makes you wonder where the lime will come from,though. It's not as if someone is making it from scratch and our local lime quarry has exhausted all the limestone in the seam so cotswold lime is being hauled at far greater expense

Don't worry we have not even scratched the surface. It is very abundant.

 

[Old apprentice]

Availability of lime in lots of areas will be planning permission to query lime. Just another note concrete in my area is based on limestone this type of concrete when in silage pits and cattle yards it all disolved down the same and leaves a good level surface. A silage pit with flints in the concrete after several years must be very rough to clean or scrape.

 

[Guleesh]

I dug a hole in the peat on the hill with the tractor bucket the other day, 1-2’ of black peat, then the most beautiful looking brown earth underneath, I wondered how long ago it was when that was the top soil, and what had changed for the peat to form, major climate shift or something?

Settlement by man? cutting down trees, grazing livestock? peat supposedly grows 1mm a years so 2' is only 600 years worth.