Limousin Society

Agrivator

Member
birth registration is more expensive for Blues but we will carry on registering them as we do get asked if they are pedigree or not when selling them also there is TB comp to consider if/when we get unlucky

I've never understood the logic behind pedigree animals having a higher compensation value. My own commercial stock now have a few generations of ancestors, including their sires, at least as accurate as many so-called pedigree stock. ;)

And I certainly wouldn't value my Limousin cross cows any lower than, say, pedigree Shorthorn, Angus, Luing, Salers, Herefords etc.

And if pedigree animals are so valuable, their owners must have made enough in the past to see them through a wipe-out compared to someone with commercial stock.

Just making a point. Don't want to start a heated discussion.
 

Bill the Bass

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cumbria
up
Yes I spose if you have a fair few and don't sell at a premium because they are registered then it adds up and is more messing about taking samples and sending them off rather than just registering them on line of an evening like we have to with blues

I take it the £25 incudes the DNA test ? I couldn't see anything to say different on the link

there was talk a year or so ago of having to DNA sample for blue registrations but not heard any more about it yet, I spose it will happen if that's what the powers that be want, I am quite happy with things as they are just check anything that could be one of two sires.
birth registration is more expensive for Blues but we will carry on registering them as we do get asked if they are pedigree or not when selling them also there is TB comp to consider if/when we get unlucky

No the cost to register a calf doesn’t include a DNA test. You only have to DNA test cattle that are to sell at society sales, however first calved females now have to be DNA tested or any females that you are registering a calf to for the first time.

As has been said it’s a serious cost, just doing my VAT for the quarter last week and we have spent C£1k on registrations, annual membership and DNA testing and we have only registered three bulls but all females since January.

The whole Jaggerbomb saga is like an iceberg for all breed societies because as has been said, the job just can’t stand it (increased cost of DNA sampling) especially when you consider we are selling bulls into a declining market with nearly 700k less suckler in this country since subsidies were de- coupled.

I love breeding cattle but I do worry where this will end.

Edit: I can’t do with all this Facebook rubbish, what a bunch of bell ends. Facebook should be like voting in my view, only those over a certain IQ should be allowed to participate.
 
Last edited:

Hilly

Member
Yes I spose if you have a fair few and don't sell at a premium because they are registered then it adds up and is more messing about taking samples and sending them off rather than just registering them on line of an evening like we have to with blues

I take it the £25 incudes the DNA test ? I couldn't see anything to say different on the link

there was talk a year or so ago of having to DNA sample for blue registrations but not heard any more about it yet, I spose it will happen if that's what the powers that be want, I am quite happy with things as they are just check anything that could be one of two sires.
birth registration is more expensive for Blues but we will carry on registering them as we do get asked if they are pedigree or not when selling them also there is TB comp to consider if/when we get unlucky
What’s the difference in compo between ped and non ped ?
 

Cowgirl

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ayrshire
I think it is true in all walks of life that social media is providing an outlet for the frustration people feel when they care about something but don’t have any power to change the way things are being done. Breed societies in the cattle world seem to make rules behind closed doors without letting ordinary members have any say and that is bound to lead to discontent.
There would perhaps not be such a need for DNA testing if people could be relied on not to make mistakes or indulge in fraudulent activities but with the development of genomic EBVs its use will only increase in the future, and for that to be of any use scientifically it’s vital to be certain of parentage. We also don’t want inherited defects in any breed, and they seem to be getting more frequently diagnosed. It’s also being used as in humans to determine, quite exactly in some cases, which part of the world people come from (eg my daughter sent a sample to Ancestry and it seems she’s part Swedish - apparently from my husband’s side of the family!) This means breed profiles can be identified and which lines contain SNPs for valuable traits, but it also means that animals with unexplained genetics are easily identified. This may mean fewer registrations but there are only going to be more hoops to jump through for those that do, and I’m sure all breed societies are going to require it soon or be left behind.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
I've never understood the logic behind pedigree animals having a higher compensation value. My own commercial stock now have a few generations of ancestors, including their sires, at least as accurate as many so-called pedigree stock. ;)

And I certainly wouldn't value my Limousin cross cows any lower than, say, pedigree Shorthorn, Angus, Luing, Salers, Herefords etc.

And if pedigree animals are so valuable, their owners must have made enough in the past to see them through a wipe-out compared to someone with commercial stock.

Just making a point. Don't want to start a heated discussion.
thems the rules so you play your best game by them
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
up


No the cost to register a calf doesn’t include a DNA test. You only have to DNA test cattle that are to sell at society sales, however first calved females now have to be DNA tested or any females that you are registering a calf to for the first time.

As has been said it’s a serious cost, just doing my VAT for the quarter last week and we have spent C£1k on registrations, annual membership and DNA testing and we have only registered three bulls but all females since January.

The whole Jaggerbomb saga is like an iceberg for all breed societies because as has been said, the job just can’t stand it (increased cost of DNA sampling) especially when you consider we are selling bulls into a declining market with nearly 700k less suckler in this country since subsidies were de- coupled.

I love breeding cattle but I do worry where this will end.

Edit: I can’t do with all this Facebook rubbish, what a bunch of bell ends. Facebook should be like voting in my view, only those over a certain IQ should be allowed to participate.
that is a lot of money
how much do they charge for the DNA test then ?
Do bulls used for pedigree breeding have to be tested ?
 

Cowgirl

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ayrshire
I've never understood the logic behind pedigree animals having a higher compensation value. My own commercial stock now have a few generations of ancestors, including their sires, at least as accurate as many so-called pedigree stock. ;)

And I certainly wouldn't value my Limousin cross cows any lower than, say, pedigree Shorthorn, Angus, Luing, Salers, Herefords etc.

And if pedigree animals are so valuable, their owners must have made enough in the past to see them through a wipe-out compared to someone with commercial stock.

Just making a point. Don't want to start a heated discussion.
I quite agree with you - it’s ridiculous. If it was just a small difference to allow for registration costs perhaps but a cow is just a cow after all.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
I think it is true in all walks of life that social media is providing an outlet for the frustration people feel when they care about something but don’t have any power to change the way things are being done. Breed societies in the cattle world seem to make rules behind closed doors without letting ordinary members have any say and that is bound to lead to discontent.
Quite
 

Bill the Bass

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cumbria
I quite agree with you - it’s ridiculous. If it was just a small difference to allow for registration costs perhaps but a cow is just a cow after all.

Why is it ridiculous? Have you not read the previous posts? It’s not just registration, what about the cost of DNA samples, time to carry out weighing for EBV’s and scanning costs, CHeCs scheme costs, insurance, royalties for calves got by AI? The list is now pretty endless for costs associated with breeding beef genetics and it is only right that if an animal has to be slaughtered through no fault of your own that these extra costs should be recognised and reimbursed.
 

Bill the Bass

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cumbria
that is a lot of money
how much do they charge for the DNA test then ?
Do bulls used for pedigree breeding have to be tested ?

The cost depends on what you are testing for, the most popular of which I I think is sire verification, myostatin, polled and colour is £30 +vat. Bulls used for pedigree use will have to be sire verified I believe before offspring can be registered to the herd book.
 

Cowgirl

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ayrshire
Why is it ridiculous? Have you not read the previous posts? It’s not just registration, what about the cost of DNA samples, time to carry out weighing for EBV’s and scanning costs, CHeCs scheme costs, insurance, royalties for calves got by AI? The list is now pretty endless for costs associated with breeding beef genetics and it is only right that if an animal has to be slaughtered through no fault of your own that these extra costs should be recognised and reimbursed.
None of it is enough to make up for the anguish of losing cattle to that dreadful disease. We are so fortunate in Scotland that it happens so rarely. It’s the difference that doesn’t make much sense.
It’s true that we should expect more for our time than we do but our biggest expense by far is the CHeCs scheme and we would be in that whether we had pedigree cattle or crossbred. The farm insurance would also be the same and we would still weigh them. Not sure what you mean by royalties- do you mean semen costs? Again that might be similar if you AI crossbred cows. DNA testing is the only real difference is it not?
 
Last edited:

Bill the Bass

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cumbria
None of it is enough to make up for the anguish of losing cattle to that dreadful disease. We are so fortunate in Scotland that it happens so rarely. It’s the difference that doesn’t make much sense.
It’s true that we should expect more for our time than we do but our biggest expense by far is the CHeCs scheme and we would be in that whether we had pedigree cattle or crossbred. The farm insurance would also be the same and we would still weigh them. Not sure what you mean by royalties- do you mean semen costs? Again that might be similar if you AI crossbred cows. DNA testing is the only real difference is it not?

Happens so rarely - good one!

Anyway, I would say it’s about cost and value, by your reckoning a ten year old Hereford cross Holstein is worth the same as a pedigree beef cow that has sold progeny for over say £10k a piece, sorry but that just doesn’t compute with me. In terms of cost, your man/woman with the Hereford cross can sell his/ her calves at any auction with minimal cost, a pedigree breeder can only really sell his bulls at certain society sales at certain auctions, on the condition the herd is part of a CHecs scheme, the bull is performance recorded, and scanned and dna tested.

Semen royalty bulls are where the owner of the bull puts a royalty on the semen that the has to be paid to the owner upon the pedigree registration of its progeny.
 

Cowgirl

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Ayrshire
Happens so rarely - good one!

Anyway, I would say it’s about cost and value, by your reckoning a ten year old Hereford cross Holstein is worth the same as a pedigree beef cow that has sold progeny for over say £10k a piece, sorry but that just doesn’t compute with me. In terms of cost, your man/woman with the Hereford cross can sell his/ her calves at any auction with minimal cost, a pedigree breeder can only really sell his bulls at certain society sales at certain auctions, on the condition the herd is part of a CHecs scheme, the bull is performance recorded, and scanned and dna tested.

Semen royalty bulls are where the owner of the bull puts a royalty on the semen that the has to be paid to the owner upon the pedigree registration of its progeny.
Ah thanks for explaining about royalties- we don’t have that, or sales or auctions, nor do we have cows with progeny sold at £10K! We can dream I suppose.. The fact is though that our pedigree cows are worth in the market place not much more than a commercial cow - yours are different I suppose. I would be upset to lose any of them though - no amount of compensation would replace them.
 

Bill the Bass

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cumbria
Ah thanks for explaining about royalties- we don’t have that, or sales or auctions, nor do we have cows with progeny sold at £10K! We can dream I suppose.. The fact is though that our pedigree cows are worth in the market place not much more than a commercial cow - yours are different I suppose. I would be upset to lose any of them though - no amount of compensation would replace them.

Royalties are completely the choice of the vendor whether to charge them so are not on every bull, both Charolais and Limousins have royalty bulls, not sure about other breeds.

No our cows aren’t different, most would just be good commercial types, but there is a lot of effort and extra cost that has gone into breeding them which will not have gone into a herd of say lim x Holsteins bought as bullers down the mart which as I have said should be accounted for.
 

Agrivator

Member

That difference is ridiculous. The majority of pedigree stock are no better and often worse than good commercial stock. Try buying pedigree bulling heifers and see how disappointing some of them are.

Most pedigree breeders are simply adept at feeding and dressing. Once the shine goes of their stock, they shrink to about two thirds of their size and can look mighty plain.
 

Henarar

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Somerset
Ah thanks for explaining about royalties- we don’t have that, or sales or auctions, nor do we have cows with progeny sold at £10K! We can dream I suppose.. The fact is though that our pedigree cows are worth in the market place not much more than a commercial cow
Plenty of pedigree cattle of allsorts of different breeds go through market at not much more and sometimes less than commercial value
 
That difference is ridiculous. The majority of pedigree stock are no better and often worse than good commercial stock. Try buying pedigree bulling heifers and see how disappointing some of them are.

Most pedigree breeders are simply adept at feeding and dressing. Once the shine goes of their stock, they shrink to about two thirds of their size and can look mighty plain.
A lot are poorer than commercial stock.
Take for example the "record priced" Lim heifer who wasn't even correct of her legs but was in demand mainly because of her background.
Like you say, put her on rough silage and ask her to calve down at 2yo like any other heifer and see how different she looks.
I wonder how many would offer quarter of a Mil for her then.
 
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Old Tip

Member
Location
Cumbria
A lot are poorer than commercial stock.
Take for example the "record priced" Lim heifer who wasn't even correct of her legs but was in demand mainly because of her background.
Like you say, put her on rough silage and ask her to calve down at 2yo like any other heifer and see how different she looks.
I wonder how many would offer quarter of a Mil for her then.
The show ring and fashion have ruined many a breed, far to many poor types are registered when only the best functioning ones should be kept. Also a fashion for certain traits can make a breed loose it’s original strengths.
 

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