Limousin

[Walterp]

Needs no intro, really - the best beef breed there is, bar none, for upland regions everywhere.

The most well-regarded beef breed in France since the 19th Century, the famous US-MARC study confirmed it - Limousin cattle convert less grass, into more meat, better than any other breed. Fine-boned, easy-calving, heavily-muscled and hardy, they do it all - their only drawbacks being the time they need to do it in and, of course, their notorious tetchiness.

Hard to believe that they've only been introduced into the UK in 1971, when they are the biggest beef breed on BCMS by a huge margin.

So where to from here, then? Well, on the plus side there's colour breeding, polled Canadian genetics, research into cross-breeding to maximise HV, and attempts to identify vicious dispositions; on the minus side is the infamous F94L double-muscling gene, and the hard calvings that are reputed to be on the increase. Reputed my ass, I've seen a C-section scar on a Limousin cow, so it's out there Alfy...

Figures? A 333kg d/w carcase has an average 63.5% KOP, but takes longer to finish (up to 400 days longer than native breeds, up to 220 days longer than other Continentals). But the killer stat. is that Limousins' FCE far exceeds all other comers - doing more, on less, time after time.

 

[Sussex Martin]

Taking an extra 400 days to finish would be bloody expensive wouldn't it? Maybe people should look at their bottom line a bit more rather than the figure received from each beast. If you have a closer look Walter you may find your Herefords are doing better than you think!

 

[Juggler]

They are exceptionally good, but are in the process of being ruined by some high profile breeders and showmen in the race to produce the biggest arsed, tightest gutted bull in the mart.

 

[M-J-G]

400 days longer? I'd want a second animal almost finished in another 400 days!!!

They neither grow quick enough compared to some continentals nor finish easily compared to most Natives

They are too soft for a outdoor wintering job.

There seems to be a large proportion of Johnes engrained in the breed.

The "killer Stat" is that too many of them are killers.

All of the above are important to me so, NO THANKS.

 

[Walterp]

400 days longer? I'd want a second animal almost finished in another 400 days!!!

They neither grow quick enough compared to some continentals nor finish easily compared to most Natives

They are too soft for a outdoor wintering job.

There seems to be a large proportion of Johnes engrained in the breed.

The "killer Stat" is that too many of them are killers.

All of the above are important to me so, NO THANKS.

You'd be misinterpreting the research: the extra time they take to mature varies upon what trait you'd be examining (eye muscle, rib development, etc, so that it can be as little as 70 days, just depends what you want) and over-looks the reason why they are so suited to upland regions - they convert a little acidic grassland into a lot of saleable meat.

This is the Limousin's USP, really, and explains their ubiquity: they are cheaper to keep, kilo for kilo, than anything else, hence are more profitable than anything else in those surroundings.

Native breeds? Well, comparison with a Hereford is instructive - it eats more, for less beef, than the Limousin. And they Limousin'd out-winter far better than the average Hereford, when judged on how they look at the end of March.

Johnes? Dunno about that, how do you reckon that then?

 

[JP1]

Now normally I would be commenting in a similar vein to Sussex Martin but I do commend Walter for posting and using objective facts. His findings say up to 220 days longer than other continentals. On the native front I would imagine which breed and the system the cattle were on might show some natives (i.e. my Galloways or perhaps, say, Longhorns - only an example of the latter, I do not know them well) would take a similarly long time to fatten

We need more @Tim W type contributions to make an objective assessment

 

[Walterp]

Taking an extra 400 days to finish would be bloody expensive wouldn't it? Maybe people should look at their bottom line a bit more rather than the figure received from each beast. If you have a closer look Walter you may find your Herefords are doing better than you think!

The US-MARC research was translating their results into the bottom line - although you have to wait for the money from the sale of a mature animal, the cheque would be bigger and they'd have cost less to keep in the interim.

Herefords? Where they lose out - uniformity, conformation, FCE, value per kilo. Where they, and other native breeds can gain, is if they are bought as store animals more cheaply than a Llimousin, so that the FCE is compensated for by having less money invested per animal. But this wouldn't apply to a suckler herd, which is why you'd see very few Hereford suckler herds that are neither professional breeders nor garden herds.

But - just as the Limousin is The Great Improver - the Hereford has (I think) a great part to play in cross-breeding to achieve a more efficient sucker dam.

 

[Walterp]

Now normally I would be commenting in a similar vein to Sussex Martin but I do commend Walter for posting and using objective facts. His findings say up to 220 days longer than other continentals. On the native front I would imagine which breed and the system the cattle were on might show some natives (i.e. my Galloways or perhaps, say, Longhorns - only an example of the latter, I do not know them well) would take a similarly long time to fatten

We need more @Tim W type contributions to make an objective assessment

Perhaps Tim can say where, he thinks, the Limousin genes pop up in all sorts of place?

I know they've been used in some breeds to beef up a trait, but does every breeder own up to this?

 

[GenuineRisk]

Have you looked properly at the conformation of the polled Limousins on offer? Really? And I've yet to see a really good black Lim although I am sure there must be one or two out there. Most ped Lim breeders seem hell bent on producing red Blues and with their increased initial faster growth rates, their easy-calving reputation is going down the pan, fast. They do not have the fine bone of the Blue, either - it's just not logical to expect fine bone on a heavily muscled, tall individual and if you do manage it, they'll be fragile - stands to reason!

I've literally just come in for my breakfast having brought in a mixed bunch of ped Blues, Bluex recips and three pedigree 2yo Lim heifers - we're about to shove CIDRS in a few of them including the Lims. One shake of a yellow bucket with sugar beet pellets in and the ped Blues come running, with the recips close behind. Followed at a distance by three highly suspicious flighty Lim heifers. If they hadn't been in the bunch, I would have had the gate closed on the others in under 30 seconds but no, the Lims had to feck about and live up to their oh so justified rep of being difficult. They did come in, as I just stood very quietly out of their way but had to go a long way round to get up behind them to push then in with the others.... But it's just irritating. And these would be classed probably as 1s or 2s on WalterP's temperament scale....they've been raised with ped blue heifers and would definitely be calmer than most but we still had to separate them out from their ped Blue cohorts as it made my life easier without them razzing up the Blues.

Lim genetics are undeniably invaluable in commercial suckler herds but in my book, they are for very experienced stockmen who have the facilities, fitness levels and knowledge of Lim pedigrees to know where to go to get the most useful genetics for their herd requirements.

 

[GenuineRisk]

And yes, Johnnes is an acknowledged serious problem in Lims, now brought to public attention by the need for entries at pedigree sales to be tested and for all ped herds to be members of health schemes detailing which level their herd has attained.

 

[JP1]

And yes, Johnnes is an acknowledged serious problem in Lims, now brought to public attention by the need for entries at pedigree sales to be tested and for all ped herds to be members of health schemes detailing which level their herd has attained.

Whatever was the alleged catalyst for more and more Society Sales to have compulsory health scheme membership, is it not a good practice that every pedigree breeder should sell tested cattle?

 

[neilo]

And yes, Johnnes is an acknowledged serious problem in Lims, now brought to public attention by the need for entries at pedigree sales to be tested and for all ped herds to be members of health schemes detailing which level their herd has attained.

So you could say that they are the only breed society that has officially recognised the problem and are actively doing something about it?

Is there any reason why Johnnes should be any more prevalent in one breed than in another? I always thought it was an environmental disease, passed from cow to cow/mother to calf, rather than a genetic one. Are there not just a lot of Johnnes cases in Lims, because there are a lot of Lims?

Agree on the temperament point before, they are genetically predisposed to be flighty, a trait which is evident in day old calves out of the quietest of dairy cows, long before they have 'learnt' to be nutters. If I ever do go into cattle again here, Lim won't be appearing in the mix.

 

[mike the vet]

Have you looked properly at the conformation of the polled Limousins on offer? Really? And I've yet to see a really good black Lim although I am sure there must be one or two out there. Most ped Lim breeders seem hell bent on producing red Blues and with their increased initial faster growth rates, their easy-calving reputation is going down the pan, fast. They do not have the fine bone of the Blue, either - it's just not logical to expect fine bone on a heavily muscled, tall individual and if you do manage it, they'll be fragile - stands to reason!

I've literally just come in for my breakfast having brought in a mixed bunch of ped Blues, Bluex recips and three pedigree 2yo Lim heifers - we're about to shove CIDRS in a few of them including the Lims. One shake of a yellow bucket with sugar beet pellets in and the ped Blues come running, with the recips close behind. Followed at a distance by three highly suspicious flighty Lim heifers. If they hadn't been in the bunch, I would have had the gate closed on the others in under 30 seconds but no, the Lims had to feck about and live up to their oh so justified rep of being difficult. They did come in, as I just stood very quietly out of their way but had to go a long way round to get up behind them to push then in with the others.... But it's just irritating. And these would be classed probably as 1s or 2s on WalterP's temperament scale....they've been raised with ped blue heifers and would definitely be calmer than most but we still had to separate them out from their ped Blue cohorts as it made my life easier without them razzing up the Blues.

Lim genetics are undeniably invaluable in commercial suckler herds but in my book, they are for very experienced stockmen who have the facilities, fitness levels and knowledge of Lim pedigrees to know where to go to get the most useful genetics for their herd requirements.

Just brought in 25 cows with month old calves,mostly Limx and had no need for a bucket,they come to call.No pushing,no shoving and no need to hide behind the gate.

 

[Sandpit Farm]

So you could say that they are the only breed society that has officially recognised the problem and are actively doing something about it?

Is there any reason why Johnnes should be any more prevalent in one breed than in another? I always thought it was an environmental disease, passed from cow to cow/mother to calf, rather than a genetic one. Are there not just a lot of Johnnes cases in Lims, because there are a lot of Lims?

Agree on the temperament point before, they are genetically predisposed to be flighty, a trait which is evident in day old calves out of the quietest of dairy cows, long before they have 'learnt' to be nutters. If I ever do go into cattle again here, Lim won't be appearing in the mix.

Other breeds have taken Johne's seriously and I think most of the popular beef breeds require animals to be tested prior to society sales (I believe this includes Sims and Blues). I guess the problem is that most animals sold in sales are too young to test positive for the disease, even if they actually have it. If you look for something, you will find it... so maybe they have looked for it more in lims like you say. The Swedes hold the mantra that they are 'Johne's free' because they test for it in every herd and never find it!! Yet they test the 4 oldest animals in the herd (the exact place you are not likely to find it).

I don't understand why Lims have a bad rep for Johne's. Jerseys seem to have more Johne's than other breeds of dairy cattle but I think this is easily explained when you think that bull calves are more likely to be euthanased and therefore waste milk will often get fed to the heifers. Also, wherever you have a smaller genetic base of a breed, disease will always spread quicker. I guess this flies in the face of the lim Johne's logic.

Anyway, to get back on track. Limousin may well have the conformation and ability to produce good value meat but I think with Herefords you would have a lot less 'near misses'... I suppose extra profit or high value animals are no good to you if you are in a coffin! Sorry, but not a fan.

 

[Baling Hay]

You'd be misinterpreting the research: the extra time they take to mature varies upon what trait you'd be examining (eye muscle, rib development, etc, so that it can be as little as 70 days, just depends what you want) and over-looks the reason why they are so suited to upland regions - they convert a little acidic grassland into a lot of saleable meat.

This is the Limousin's USP, really, and explains their ubiquity: they are cheaper to keep, kilo for kilo, than anything else, hence are more profitable than anything else in those surroundings.

Native breeds? Well, comparison with a Hereford is instructive - it eats more, for less beef, than the Limousin. And they Limousin'd out-winter far better than the average Hereford, when judged on how they look at the end of March.

Johnes? Dunno about that, how do you reckon that then?

Yes,, but Walter if they are taking a longer time to finish surely you are feeding for maintenance for a greater time as well and thus have increased feed costs or do you mean they take longer to finish but finish at a higher weight?

Have you got a link to this research?

 

[GenuineRisk]

So you could say that they are the only breed society that has officially recognised the problem and are actively doing something about it?

Is there any reason why Johnnes should be any more prevalent in one breed than in another? I always thought it was an environmental disease, passed from cow to cow/mother to calf, rather than a genetic one. Are there not just a lot of Johnnes cases in Lims, because there are a lot of Lims?

Agree on the temperament point before, they are genetically predisposed to be flighty, a trait which is evident in day old calves out of the quietest of dairy cows, long before they have 'learnt' to be nutters. If I ever do go into cattle again here, Lim won't be appearing in the mix.

It's an extremely good point that they were, I believe, one of the first Societies to start insisting on testing but that could be due to the fact more propblems were being brought to the Societies attention to resolve from Lims developing Johnnes that had been sold under Breed Socierty auspices! It's also a very valid point that testing younger animals is pointless, no matter what breed they are. However, can you rule out a link between actualy developing the disease and stress ? While you could argue the disease is more prevalent in Lims because of their sheer numbers, you could also argue that one of the triggers for kicking the disease off earlier is that fact that Lims stress eaier than most other breeds....

 

[Sandpit Farm]

It's an extremely good point that they were, I believe, one of the first Societies to start insisting on testing but that could be due to the fact more propblems were being brought to the Societies attention to resolve from Lims developing Johnnes that had been sold under Breed Socierty auspices! It's also a very valid point that testing younger animals is pointless, no matter what breed they are. However, can you rule out a link between actualy developing the disease and stress ? While you could argue the disease is more prevalent in Lims because of their sheer numbers, you could also argue that one of the triggers for kicking the disease off earlier is that fact that Lims stress eaier than most other breeds....

Yes, yes... that actually makes a lot of sense and I hadn't thought about it in that way. It is a stress related disease as it usually brings cows down after calving.

 

[M-J-G]

Johnes? Dunno about that, how do you reckon that then?

The tiny % of Johnes accredited herds compare with the number accredited for BVD in the breed is a fair indicator. Along with details of health status declarations at sales as GR has already pointed out.

How many of these successful upland Lim sucklers are any more than half Lim??? I've found that without a milky breed to be crossed with, milk with a 3/4+ Lim will be in fairly short supply.

I had 3 different enquiries on the Fleckvieh stand at the NEC last week even,t looking for semen from a high milk Dual Purpose bulls to breed replacements with. 2 were men with a few generations of Lim in their cows and the other was crossing Blonde and AA. All 3 couldn't rear calves without creep!!!

They are also too Whippet like to have enough capacity to eat enough forage, I found them to loose too much condition on poor forage alone in winter compared with the Sim and SH.

Which makes me wonder was it Lims that you had in mind when you said before that out-wintered cattle didn't do as well as housed ones?

 

[M-J-G]

So you could say that they are the only breed society that has officially recognised the problem and are actively doing something about it?

Is there any reason why Johnnes should be any more prevalent in one breed than in another? I always thought it was an environmental disease, passed from cow to cow/mother to calf, rather than a genetic one. Are there not just a lot of Johnnes cases in Lims, because there are a lot of Lims?

Agree on the temperament point before, they are genetically predisposed to be flighty, a trait which is evident in day old calves out of the quietest of dairy cows, long before they have 'learnt' to be nutters. If I ever do go into cattle again here, Lim won't be appearing in the mix.

Cow to calf is still the most common route of transmission, so the more cows in a breed that have it the more calves will get it which would make the occurrence in that breed higher.

Nearly all breed Society Sales are asking for Health declarations and Pre-sale testing. I think most are doing something about it.

 

[peartree pumpkin]

Just to throw in a nice side- just had a lim x hereford cow give birth to a set of twins this morning- an old girl but quiet
Ain't nature brill at time - sun is shining/ making hay & calving brill!!!