Line one Herefords

Did I Mention the word Hungary ? No , so unless you want ignored for behaving like a bell end talk sensable or pee off ok , your choice Martin, choose wisely .

That's your choice Alan, you can ignore who you want to, obviously I'd prefer you didn't but that's not up to me.

You said keep them tighter stocked, and that it wasn't rocket science, which of course it isn't, but restricting intakes to keep lactating cows leaner obviously has knock on effects.
I'm not wanting calves to be on restricted grass when with their mothers, I want them to be getting as much they want, I was asking Woolless how this can be achieved, as I haven't found a way to practically do that so far, apart from forward grazing which isn't really an option.

So far I've gotten round this by keeping a cow that matches the land and has more growth and production potential so doesnt get ovefat like most natives have here, but I keep getting told on TFF that little cows are much more efficient, but I've found that grazing these easy keep/hill types in a way that allows calves to grow well means overfat cows, which have naturally smaller calves anyway, so it was loose loose.
So far I've been told there are ways round this, but nobody has explained a yet of them practically.
 

Hilly

Member
That's your choice Alan, you can ignore who you want to, obviously I'd prefer you didn't but that's not up to me.

You said keep them tighter stocked, and that it wasn't rocket science, which of course it isn't, but restricting intakes to keep lactating cows leaner obviously has knock on effects.
I'm not wanting calves to be on restricted grass when with their mothers, I want them to be getting as much they want, I was asking Woolless how this can be achieved, as I haven't found a way to practically do that so far, apart from forward grazing which isn't really an option.

So far I've gotten round this by keeping a cow that matches the land and has more growth and production potential so doesnt get ovefat like most natives have here, but I keep getting told on TFF that little cows are much more efficient, but I've found that grazing these easy keep/hill types in a way that allows calves to grow well means overfat cows, which have naturally smaller calves anyway, so it was loose loose.
So far I've been told there are ways round this, but nobody has explained a yet of them practically.
You should start your own thread on the benefits of your stock and systems save polluting mine with your off topic self promotion.
 
That's your choice Alan, you can ignore who you want to, obviously I'd prefer you didn't but that's not up to me.

You said keep them tighter stocked, and that it wasn't rocket science, which of course it isn't, but restricting intakes to keep lactating cows leaner obviously has knock on effects.
I'm not wanting calves to be on restricted grass when with their mothers, I want them to be getting as much they want, I was asking Woolless how this can be achieved, as I haven't found a way to practically do that so far, apart from forward grazing which isn't really an option.

So far I've gotten round this by keeping a cow that matches the land and has more growth and production potential so doesnt get ovefat like most natives have here, but I keep getting told on TFF that little cows are much more efficient, but I've found that grazing these easy keep/hill types in a way that allows calves to grow well means overfat cows, which have naturally smaller calves anyway, so it was loose loose.
So far I've been told there are ways round this, but nobody has explained a yet of them practically.
Creep grazing for the calves is certainly an option. All it needs is one bit of the fence propped up a bit to allow calves under. So there's two possibilities for grazing smaller, easier fleshing cows on decent grass without becoming excessively fat.

Anyway, you don't want to do that and are quite happy with your Simmentals. Fair enough.
 
Creep grazing for the calves is certainly an option. All it needs is one bit of the fence propped up a bit to allow calves under. So there's two possibilities for grazing smaller, easier fleshing cows on decent grass without becoming excessively fat.

Anyway, you don't want to do that and are quite happy with your Simmentals. Fair enough.
Happy to look at any ideas/breeds, but they need to fit the system and bring in more money.

Creep grazing is great in an ideal world, but crossing roads etc to the next paddock rules that out.
Raising electric fences is a no no for me, I've tried it and as it only creates fence dodgers when heifers calves are kept as replacements.
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
We are good quality milking grass dairy farm but want to set up a small herd of sucklers so that over time I can give up the milking, I don't want to do it past 45 years!
We run Hereford and Angus bulls on our cows and Finnish the offspring. Will these line one Herefords just get to fat on our type of ground, that it will be a constant battle to keep them in the right condition to prevent calving issues? We could potentially run 250 cows to replace the milkers, currently they are run on a stricked pasture grassing rotation, and we would want to do similar with cows to maximize grass use.
Let them get fat over summer and slim them down over winter after they are weaned. A fat cow can store a lot of feed on her back and it's quite natural for a ruminant to lose condition over winter.
@scholland is the expert at that.
 

scholland

Member
Location
ze3
Let them get fat over summer and slim them down over winter after they are weaned. A fat cow can store a lot of feed on her back and it's quite natural for a ruminant to lose condition over winter.
@scholland is the expert at that.
I'm no expert at very much, just copying mother nature! But agreed there is a lot to be gained by gaining condition over summer and eating it back over winter.

I suspect there is considerably more variation within breeds than between breeds so don't really get excited about which is best.
Just try to find cattle that suit our system.
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
That's pretty much what everyone does, taking it to extremes because cattle aren't matched to the farm isn't ideal.
What's wrong with doing it that way though?
You will get better calves with bigger cows that aren't small and dumpy of course, but the fat dumpy cattle can be wintered cheaper if you feed them to lose weight over winter. Not just feeding them but smaller cattle sh!t less and use less bedding as well, or poach less when outside if outwintered. Winter is by far the most expensive part of the year if you can save then you don't have to make as much back later on 🤷‍♂️
The cattle from the fat dumpy cattle are much easier and cheaper to finish as well.
It's the direction I'm taking things here but it only works if I finish my own cattle they wouldn't sell well as stores. (I finish them anyway because tb is everywhere and getting nearer all the time) it suits here but won't suit everyone I know.
 
What's wrong with doing it that way though?
You will get better calves with bigger cows that aren't small and dumpy of course, but the fat dumpy cattle can be wintered cheaper if you feed them to lose weight over winter. Not just feeding them but smaller cattle sh!t less and use less bedding as well, or poach less when outside if outwintered. Winter is by far the most expensive part of the year if you can save then you don't have to make as much back later on 🤷‍♂️
The cattle from the fat dumpy cattle are much easier and cheaper to finish as well.
It's the direction I'm taking things here but it only works if I finish my own cattle they wouldn't sell well as stores. (I finish them anyway because tb is everywhere and getting nearer all the time) it suits here but won't suit everyone I know.
Making winter cheaper is important and using condition is a good thing, I don't dispute that, but cattle need to be matched to the farm.
If we keep native cows here they get grossly overfat when rotationally grazed, and breaking down that excessive fat can end badly because once they get that fat they have difficulty metabolising it, combine that with compensatory placental development in a cow on a harsh diet during mid pregnancy make the extremes far from ideal and not efficient.

A cow weaned at BCS4 in November is ideal to me, she'll be maintained until month 5 of pregnancy and brought down to 3 for calving.
A native cow will be gross on the same grazing and will be lucky to be as low as a 4 by calving, still too fat IMO and going back out to grass to just get fat again, to me that's not an efficient use of energy.

If I was on a hill farm I would have to work differently, but on a mixed arable and livestock farm where cows are well grazed it doesn't make best use of the land IMO.
 

hendrebc

Member
Livestock Farmer
Making winter cheaper is important and using condition is a good thing, I don't dispute that, but cattle need to be matched to the farm.
If we keep native cows here they get grossly overfat when rotationally grazed, and breaking down that excessive fat can end badly because once they get that fat they have difficulty metabolising it, combine that with compensatory placental development in a cow on a harsh diet during mid pregnancy make the extremes far from ideal and not efficient.

A cow weaned at BCS4 in November is ideal to me, she'll be maintained until month 5 of pregnancy and brought down to 3 for calving.
A native cow will be gross on the same grazing and will be lucky to be as low as a 4 by calving, still too fat IMO and going back out to grass to just get fat again, to me that's not an efficient use of energy.

If I was on a hill farm I would have to work differently, but on a mixed arable and livestock farm where cows are well grazed it doesn't make best use of the land IMO.
Fair enough your reasons make sense. I'm not on an arable farm here and the cows main job is to clean up after the sheep and eat what they won't.
More native bred cattle get fat but don't get obese doing that. The calves aren't much to look at but still make decent enough finished cattle at 22-26 months. When we had limousine cattle they wouldn't ever be fat, always lean and had to be given priority grazing. Finishing them was hard work. Sucklers aren't really profitable enough to deserve priority over sheep I don't think.
 

Uggman

Member
Livestock Farmer
That's your choice Alan, you can ignore who you want to, obviously I'd prefer you didn't but that's not up to me.

You said keep them tighter stocked, and that it wasn't rocket science, which of course it isn't, but restricting intakes to keep lactating cows leaner obviously has knock on effects.
I'm not wanting calves to be on restricted grass when with their mothers, I want them to be getting as much they want, I was asking Woolless how this can be achieved, as I haven't found a way to practically do that so far, apart from forward grazing which isn't really an option.

So far I've gotten round this by keeping a cow that matches the land and has more growth and production potential so doesnt get ovefat like most natives have here, but I keep getting told on TFF that little cows are much more efficient, but I've found that grazing these easy keep/hill types in a way that allows calves to grow well means overfat cows, which have naturally smaller calves anyway, so it was loose loose.
So far I've been told there are ways round this, but nobody has explained a yet of them practically.
Happy to look at any ideas/breeds, but they need to fit the system and bring in more money.

Creep grazing is great in an ideal world, but crossing roads etc to the next paddock rules that out.
Raising electric fences is a no no for me, I've tried it and as it only creates fence dodgers when heifers calves are kept as replacements.
What about creep gates in a field I do get what you mean about fence dodgers thou
 

Hilly

Member
Autumnal now .
A96E0DA3-8E5C-4647-8003-97125295C3A7.jpeg
 
What about creep gates in a field I do get what you mean about fence dodgers thou
It can be done, but calved heifers and the biggest calves aren't always that different in the size of gap they'll fit through, plus when the next move (which it regularly is) is across a road quite a few times will rule it out.

Plus when holding cows back to graze them hard enough to keep fat types thinner usually leads to the cows standing at gates roaring every time they see a pick-up or a bike.
 
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