Livestock & Environment

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
I’m shocked by the number of farmers who don’t understand where the problems of carbon and climate change come from, and how livestock fit into the bigger picture. The simple truth is:

“Increasing levels of carbon in the atmosphere are the direct result of the carbon we dig out of the ground, in the form of coal, oil and gas. This is “new” carbon and is driving global warming.

“Grazed cattle contribute no “new” carbon to the atmosphere. Instead, the carbon they emit was captured from the air by the forage plants they eat. It’s called the carbon cycle and it goes round and round.

“Methane is a short-lives gas. It comes from the plants the cattle eat. It goes into the air and it breaks down to carbon dioxide in between ten and twelve years. So, the methane being emitted today is simply replacing the methane emitted a dozen years ago which has broken down. It’s like filling with water a bucket that has a hole in it.

“Once it’s broken down to carbon dioxide, the plants can recapture it and so the carbon cycle begins again. No “new” carbon is added to the atmosphere.

“Cattle (and humans) also emit carbon dioxide, when we breathe out. This too comes from the food we eat (like methane) and technically lasts ‘forever’ in the atmosphere so ought to be seen as much worse. It isn’t much worse though, as it’s part of the same carbon cycle. That’s why it’s ignored. So should methane be.”


That’s the gist of it.

Things start to get more complicated once you add fertiliser to your ground (uses a lot of fossil fuels in its manufacture and some to transport and spread it) and start adding cereals and other non-forage foods to the diet (lots of fossil fuels used in their production and transport). Waste products are different, as what is the alternative? Landfill, where they decompose to methane and carbon dioxide, or pass through a cow to produce food, methane and carbon dioxide (or through a digester, to produce energy, methane and carbon dioxide, but with digestate that then needs spreading using fossil fuels!)

In summary, a grazed cow that is on unfertilised permanent pasture adds no new carbon to the atmosphere (and this is ignoring the sequestered carbon, ie that carbon which is trapped, permanently, in the soil as humus).

Let’s not fall for the myth that cattle are bad for the environment, misinterpreted initially by the media when the IPPC first published its findings, and since taken as gospel by all and sundry. Get on-message and, whenever anyone asks, say that new carbon comes from the ground, when we extract and burn fossil fuels. Cattle just recycle the same carbon in an endless loop.
 

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
All of this is correct, well done. Except the bit about farmers not understanding this. Have you not been reading the Farming Forum?
Below is an example comment, posted on here in the last few days, which is exactly what I am talking about. By seemingly accepting that we need to find a solution, we are acknowledging that cattle pose a methane problem. The NFU are guilty of it, many farmers are guilty of it and it’s just reinforcing the misconception that there is a problem with livestock farming. This is the comment (I’ve not attributed it to anyone as I’m not intending to blame, just change behaviours):

“My wife was having a conversation with another vet who is a researcher rather than a practicing vet. She is developing a bolus for cows which consumes methane. She is looking for funding just now to trial it. Sounds like a promising way to shut up the environment brigade ?”
 

Dan Powell

Member
Location
Shropshire
@The Ruminant Tom, there is one problem with your analysis and that is the increasing numbers of ruminants. Some people say we are only replacing natural ruminant populations with domesticated animals. I'm not sure this is the case due to land use change from forest to grassland and general intensification.

I agree with your message but methane concentration will rise with greater ruminant numbers. It is essential that this trend is reversed worldwide. We are already about 20% lower than the peak for UK ruminants but the trend is for greater numbers worldwide. India in particular has.enormous numbers of low yielding dairy cows. With better management they could half that population easily.

I think it's too simple to say "there is no problem with methane etc" as it is not a water tight argument.

Dr Myles Allen from the Oxford Martin school has done the best work on the subject. Here's an excellent article explaining the argument fully.

 
I’m shocked by the number of farmers who don’t understand where the problems of carbon and climate change come from, and how livestock fit into the bigger picture. The simple truth is:

“Increasing levels of carbon in the atmosphere are the direct result of the carbon we dig out of the ground, in the form of coal, oil and gas. This is “new” carbon and is driving global warming.

“Grazed cattle contribute no “new” carbon to the atmosphere. Instead, the carbon they emit was captured from the air by the forage plants they eat. It’s called the carbon cycle and it goes round and round.

“Methane is a short-lives gas. It comes from the plants the cattle eat. It goes into the air and it breaks down to carbon dioxide in between ten and twelve years. So, the methane being emitted today is simply replacing the methane emitted a dozen years ago which has broken down. It’s like filling with water a bucket that has a hole in it.

“Once it’s broken down to carbon dioxide, the plants can recapture it and so the carbon cycle begins again. No “new” carbon is added to the atmosphere.

“Cattle (and humans) also emit carbon dioxide, when we breathe out. This too comes from the food we eat (like methane) and technically lasts ‘forever’ in the atmosphere so ought to be seen as much worse. It isn’t much worse though, as it’s part of the same carbon cycle. That’s why it’s ignored. So should methane be.”


That’s the gist of it.

Things start to get more complicated once you add fertiliser to your ground (uses a lot of fossil fuels in its manufacture and some to transport and spread it) and start adding cereals and other non-forage foods to the diet (lots of fossil fuels used in their production and transport). Waste products are different, as what is the alternative? Landfill, where they decompose to methane and carbon dioxide, or pass through a cow to produce food, methane and carbon dioxide (or through a digester, to produce energy, methane and carbon dioxide, but with digestate that then needs spreading using fossil fuels!)

In summary, a grazed cow that is on unfertilised permanent pasture adds no new carbon to the atmosphere (and this is ignoring the sequestered carbon, ie that carbon which is trapped, permanently, in the soil as humus).

Let’s not fall for the myth that cattle are bad for the environment, misinterpreted initially by the media when the IPPC first published its findings, and since taken as gospel by all and sundry. Get on-message and, whenever anyone asks, say that new carbon comes from the ground, when we extract and burn fossil fuels. Cattle just recycle the same carbon in an endless loop.
Given the IPPC's bias, one concludes any conclusions made by them is automatically incorrect, false or potentially fraud.
 
Location
southwest
Below is an example comment, posted on here in the last few days, which is exactly what I am talking about. By seemingly accepting that we need to find a solution, we are acknowledging that cattle pose a methane problem. The NFU are guilty of it, many farmers are guilty of it and it’s just reinforcing the misconception that there is a problem with livestock farming. This is the comment (I’ve not attributed it to anyone as I’m not intending to blame, just change behaviours):

“My wife was having a conversation with another vet who is a researcher rather than a practicing vet. She is developing a bolus for cows which consumes methane. She is looking for funding just now to trial it. Sounds like a promising way to shut up the environment brigade ?”

That quote doesn't mean that farmers don't understand the natural carbon cycle. It is about a way of combating the environmental lobby who do not understand the problem.

Most of the population have little or no understanding of climate change, they just go on what they pick up from the media and the internet-both extremely unreliable sources of facts.

The facts are that transport has a far bigger climate impact than farming, but people don't want to face up to that inconvenient truth.
 

Stuart J

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
UK
No new carbon is added, that is correct.

But you fail to mention that when in the form of methane, it has a warming effect 28 TIMES higher than that of CO2.

Lets not tell ourselves lies just to make us feel good.
 

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
No new carbon is added, that is correct.

But you fail to mention that when in the form of methane, it has a warming effect 28 TIMES higher than that of CO2.

Lets not tell ourselves lies just to make us feel good.
Could I suggest you go back and read again what I’ve said. Put it like this, with constant cow numbers there is no new methane in the air so there is no ‘warming’. I used the bucket analogy to try to explain it, maybe I didn’t explain clearly enough. It certainly isn’t lies.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Nail. Head.
Many farmers will, understandably, take their lead from the NFU. The NFU line on methane from cows is "We know it's a problem, we apologize, we will cut cow numbers, bear with us". With friends like that...........
Spot on, ruminant methane is part of a flowing cycle.
But then you have people - vets, seed suppliers, even farmers - acknowledging a problem that only exists in minds, not in the atmosphere.
Check out Germinal's latest ad for their high-fat grass that "reduces methane output" for example.....

What seems to be happening is a gross overestimation of "the livestock problem" and a gross underestimation of "the human problem", because food waste rotting away in a landfill doesn't matter
 

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
@The Ruminant Tom, there is one problem with your analysis and that is the increasing numbers of ruminants. Some people say we are only replacing natural ruminant populations with domesticated animals. I'm not sure this is the case due to land use change from forest to grassland and general intensification.

I agree with your message but methane concentration will rise with greater ruminant numbers. It is essential that this trend is reversed worldwide. We are already about 20% lower than the peak for UK ruminants but the trend is for greater numbers worldwide. India in particular has.enormous numbers of low yielding dairy cows. With better management they could half that population easily.

I think it's too simple to say "there is no problem with methane etc" as it is not a water tight argument.

Dr Myles Allen from the Oxford Martin school has done the best work on the subject. Here's an excellent article explaining the argument fully.

You’re right Dan, new cattle do add ‘new’ methane to the leaking bucket. However, I’ve seen several papers that say that plant eating, enteric-fermenting animals are at the same levels as 100m years ago (Pleistocene era?) and that we are around the same level (or just creeping over it) as 180 years ago, before we got stuck into, and killed off, the great herds of bison, wildebeest, antelope, etc etc

I’m a big fan of Myles Allen’s work too, by the way. Thanks for the link
 

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
Given the IPPC's bias, one concludes any conclusions made by them is automatically incorrect, false or potentially fraud.
In the IPPC’s defence (well a little), I understand they used the GWP equivalent figure to compare carbon dioxide with methane, but heavily caveated it by saying it was just for comparison and shouldn’t be taken as gospel, because methane breaks down in the atmosphere etc whereas carbon dioxide remains in the atmosphere. However, the media grabbed the headlines and we are now where we are. (This is my understanding, it may not be the entire truth. The latest report, if read correctly, isn’t as damning, so there’s hope. We now have to educate everyone else...!!)
 

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
Good work @The Ruminant
I'm sure all livestock farmers get it.
Have you had any success explaining this to the media, vegans etc ?
IMO the biggest environmental problem is aeroplanes, but try getting people to give up their holidays in the sun
Yes, some success, but only face to face, not at scale (though I regularly post similar on comments pages under newspaper articles, but it’s a drop in the ocean)

Parties are great - usually a lot of city types who know little but are interested. Once you start talking about cows, and soil, and the carbon cycle then the questions come endlessly (as do a few meat box sales;))
 
We are already about 20% lower than the peak for UK ruminants but the trend is for greater numbers worldwide.

But you fail to mention that when in the form of methane, it has a warming effect 28 TIMES higher than that of CO2.

But it's only short lived, so in the UK with static or falling cattle numbers, there is no new methane.

So in the imortal words of the late great Adge Cuttler: "don't tell I, tell ee.
 

Stuart J

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
UK
Could I suggest you go back and read again what I’ve said. Put it like this, with constant cow numbers there is no new methane in the air so there is no ‘warming’. I used the bucket analogy to try to explain it, maybe I didn’t explain clearly enough. It certainly isn’t lies.
But with less cattle, there would be less methane.
 

Sheeponfire

Member
Yes, some success, but only face to face, not at scale (though I regularly post similar on comments pages under newspaper articles, but it’s a drop in the ocean)

Parties are great - usually a lot of city types who know little but are interested. Once you start talking about cows, and soil, and the carbon cycle then the questions come endlessly (as do a few meat box sales;))
Hats off... That's quality....

I often get that look from "her indoors" if we are on holiday and I start to educated those types you talk of...

I had a 2 half hour flight sat next to a BBC hack last Yr....

Bloody hell that was a tough flight...

It was like pissing in the wind trying to have any reasonable fact based debate with her...

But as you put it.... We can but try..
 

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