Livestock thefts increasing

[solo]

Just had the police call in to give advice in relation to the above and to call 101 if needed. Quite a few lambs being stolen and butchered in the fields too.

Calf stolen from Worcestershire farm as police see rise in livestock thefts

A CALF just two days old has been stolen from a farm building as police receive reports of a spate of livestock thefts in Worcestershire.

www.bromsgroveadvertiser.co.uk

 

[Paddington]

Seven arrests after 'illegal abattoir' found in Telford

Officers say they discovered "a disturbing scene with a large amount of blood" on a driveway.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[suffolksmallholder]

Thing that bothers me is no one saw or thought that a load of sheep in a suburban house was unusual!
SS

 

[som farmer]

we don't have a police force, in the rural areas, at nights, or weekends, even if caught, the thieves receive a nominal sentence, bit of community service. Less farm staff, and farmers around, it's getting to be easy pickings for tow rags. They must scout the area first, we have had 'odd' bits go missing, chainsaw, big stilsons etc, but never see anyone nosing round. We can't keep everything locked up securely, sign of the times, I suppose we will have to get used to it. To be honest, I don't think we have a rural police at all.

 

[Paddington]

Thing that bothers me is no one saw or thought that a load of sheep in a suburban house was unusual!
SS

It happened in Telford, nuff said.

 

[ALABAI LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN]

Just had the police call in to give advice in relation to the above and to call 101 if needed. Quite a few lambs being stolen and butchered in the fields too.

Calf stolen from Worcestershire farm as police see rise in livestock thefts

A CALF just two days old has been stolen from a farm building as police receive reports of a spate of livestock thefts in Worcestershire.

www.bromsgroveadvertiser.co.uk

Hi I’m new here so please bare with me.
Sorry to hear about this. It’s both bad for the animals welfare and the farming industry.
If livestock crimes are on the increase and have been for sometime, is the use of livestock guardian dog breeds rising along with it. If not is there a reason why?

 

[ALABAI LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN]

we don't have a police force, in the rural areas, at nights, or weekends, even if caught, the thieves receive a nominal sentence, bit of community service. Less farm staff, and farmers around, it's getting to be easy pickings for tow rags. They must scout the area first, we have had 'odd' bits go missing, chainsaw, big stilsons etc, but never see anyone nosing round. We can't keep everything locked up securely, sign of the times, I suppose we will have to get used to it. To be honest, I don't think we have a rural police at all.

Unfortunately this sort of this is on the rise as police forces year on year cut numbers and budgets yet the countries population and ethnicities grows and the numbers to police it dwindle with the rural areas being hardest hit by this trend in downsize policing. I come across many small holdings and farms small and large alike and I’ve noticed that they rarely seem to have dogs roaming free outside anymore? Is there a non publicly available reason for this. Yes some do have the odd dog but generally from what I’ve seen compared to years gone by is that farms seem to have lost their dogs. Any answers?

 

[RushesToo]

Unfortunately this sort of this is on the rise as police forces year on year cut numbers and budgets yet the countries population and ethnicities grows and the numbers to police it dwindle with the rural areas being hardest hit by this trend in downsize policing. I come across many small holdings and farms small and large alike and I’ve noticed that they rarely seem to have dogs roaming free outside anymore? Is there a non publicly available reason for this. Yes some do have the odd dog but generally from what I’ve seen compared to years gone by is that farms seem to have lost their dogs. Any answers?

It is not legal in the UK sadly. Guardian dogs would be perfect but you would end up in jail and the dogs put to sleep.

 

[ALABAI LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN]

It is not legal in the UK sadly. Guardian dogs would be perfect but you would end up in jail and the dogs put to sleep.

The law in this respect is Avery grey area. A GUARD dog is legally allowed to free roam on a premises providing a owner/handler is present and able to call the dog off upon arrival of authorities(a dog cannot be dangerously out of control but a registered guard can perform a bite and hold to an intruder or trespasser providing signs are clear on the property that a guard dog is used. , this is where it’s vague as technically being present on your property is still present on your property regardless of the size of the property. Now with livestock not machines etc you can legally use livestock guardian breeds(flock guardians) providing they are a recognised breed of lsg and are raised and “”grazed”” with the flock therefore a handler does NOT need to be present. This can only legally happen on securely fenced land that is well signed. I personally think that live stock guardians of the right breeds that are well bred for working drive are the way forward as not only do they protect against predators there pretty damn off putting to people too. Would just happen to be an advantage if your expensive Machinery was in securely fenced compound/yard/land that would just so happen to have a few live stock guardians in it protecting some geese/ducks/chickens/pigs/cows. You get the way forward. Trick is not just any old dog. True lsg breeds from known proven working lines

 

[RushesToo]

I agree, I love the idea, I just don't think the british public is up for dogs that are this good.

Happy to share some of my great finds:

Of Livestock, Predators, & Guardians

This summer, our sheep have been grazing a series of private pastures in the foothills of the southern Wind River Mountains – pastures that ...

stephenbodio.blogspot.com

The Raising of a Livestock Guardian

Domestic sheep producers throughout the world use livestock guardian dogs (also called livestock protection dogs) to protect their flocks…

medium.com

Do you have some links that you could share? I think they are simply wonderous.

 

[ALABAI LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN]

I understand where your coming from but it’s like this(bearing in mind i am member of the British public) we the public either decide to allow farmers extra powers to protect what’s theirs or we pay the price in lost livelihoods of farmers and their families and the risk of increased food production costs.
Thanks for the links I’ll have a look, although I own a run a livestock guardian kennels of ALABAI. I never get bored of reading material on these wonderful beasts. I’m sorry I don’t save links to things I just read online from reputable sources and have much contact with breeders and workers of these dogs all over the world as well as my own line of dogs inc working olde tyme bulldogges. Bet you didn’t know a bulldogge could and is willing to flush game to gun(mainly pheasant and deer)

 

[RushesToo]

I understand where your coming from but it’s like this(bearing in mind i am member of the British public) we the public either decide to allow farmers extra powers to protect what’s theirs or we pay the price in lost livelihoods of farmers and their families and the risk of increased food production costs.
Thanks for the links I’ll have a look, although I own a run a livestock guardian kennels of ALABAI. I never get bored of reading material on these wonderful beasts. I’m sorry I don’t save links to things I just read online from reputable sources and have much contact with breeders and workers of these dogs all over the world as well as my own line of dogs inc working olde tyme bulldogges. Bet you didn’t know a bulldogge could and is willing to flush game to gun(mainly pheasant and deer)

I'm sorry to be cynical, but you want to sell dogs to farmers but don't understand the law, can't see problems associated with the approach and don't have links to articles that could persuade farmers that this might just in some small way be workable?

Think about the people that you are talking to and the problems they face and how something that you may have that would help them to resolve this OR make it interesting to read.

I posted only to give you an opportunity to do this.
As I have shown [that is me, not you] they are wonderous dogs and have a place.
If anyone else is still reading this I so recommend this one:

Of Livestock, Predators, & Guardians

This summer, our sheep have been grazing a series of private pastures in the foothills of the southern Wind River Mountains – pastures that ...

stephenbodio.blogspot.com

An excerpt

"Last weekend, there were about 1,000 sheep grazing in about a two-mile area, with at least six livestock guardian dogs. The sheep may spread out to graze during the day, but bunch up together to bed at night. Where each dog was located with what bunch of sheep at any given time is fluid. We’ve had a lot of bear activity, and the dogs have done a fantastic job of keeping the bears out of the sheep in this area. ​

​

One night last month, when a bear got into a nearby cattle herd, two of the dogs from my bunch raced to the rescue, as did another guardian dog that came from the south. The two dogs returned to my bunch within about 45 minutes, and the other dog returned to the south. Rena (a five-year old Akbash female) had stayed with my sheep - the only reason I know this much is because I was sleeping on the ground next to the herd that night. I had believed that if we had problems in the sheep, it would probably be with wolves. When both black bear tracks and grizzly bear tracks were found the next morning, I gave up sleeping under the stars, and started using a tent as a more visible sign of human presence. The only wolf tracks that were found were old, but it quickly became evident that bears were a constant presence. Two particularly enthusiastic dogs (Luv’s Girl and Tigger) are excellent at hazing bears away."​

 

[Dry Rot]

I would suggest that the OP needs to learn a bit more about dogs as well as the law. I have never trained a guardian dog but I suspect they are not particularly strong in the intellectual department. Guarding does not demand a high degree of intelligence or training, mostly instinct. Here in the UK, we have a duty of care towards the public. Yes, even to trespassers and burglars.

I have three German shepherds off working lines trained to a high standard but I would never leave them at free range on my farm unless under my immediate supervision and control. By control, I mean I expect them to drop instantly when told at 200 yards plus, come immediately to call, to attack on command, and to 'desist' instantly when told. I have been around working dogs all my life, starting with hunting a pack of hounds in my teens and I am now in my 80s. I can tell you now that your ideas won't work here in the UK. In other countries, trespassing is a no-no. You can even shoot them! Speak to someone with a raised voice here in the UK, even a law breaker, and the cops will be at your door to seize your guns and you won't get them back for many weeks, if at all. Now, how do I know that?

 

[ALABAI LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN]

I'm sorry to be cynical, but you want to sell dogs to farmers but don't understand the law, can't see problems associated with the approach and don't have links to articles that could persuade farmers that this might just in some small way be workable?

Think about the people that you are talking to and the problems they face and how something that you may have that would help them to resolve this OR make it interesting to read.

I posted only to give you an opportunity to do this.
As I have shown [that is me, not you] they are wonderous dogs and have a place.
If anyone else is still reading this I so recommend this one:

Of Livestock, Predators, & Guardians

This summer, our sheep have been grazing a series of private pastures in the foothills of the southern Wind River Mountains – pastures that ...

stephenbodio.blogspot.com

An excerpt

"Last weekend, there were about 1,000 sheep grazing in about a two-mile area, with at least six livestock guardian dogs. The sheep may spread out to graze during the day, but bunch up together to bed at night. Where each dog was located with what bunch of sheep at any given time is fluid. We’ve had a lot of bear activity, and the dogs have done a fantastic job of keeping the bears out of the sheep in this area. ​

​

One night last month, when a bear got into a nearby cattle herd, two of the dogs from my bunch raced to the rescue, as did another guardian dog that came from the south. The two dogs returned to my bunch within about 45 minutes, and the other dog returned to the south. Rena (a five-year old Akbash female) had stayed with my sheep - the only reason I know this much is because I was sleeping on the ground next to the herd that night. I had believed that if we had problems in the sheep, it would probably be with wolves. When both black bear tracks and grizzly bear tracks were found the next morning, I gave up sleeping under the stars, and started using a tent as a more visible sign of human presence. The only wolf tracks that were found were old, but it quickly became evident that bears were a constant presence. Two particularly enthusiastic dogs (Luv’s Girl and Tigger) are excellent at hazing bears away."​

No apology needed as I am in no way trying to sell dogs too farmers. As stated I am a kennels of, not breeders of. Any litters we do produce are spoken for well in advance of arrival. I do have a full and comprehensive understanding of the uk dog law and I am a registered and accredited kennels of guardians with a £25 million public liability excess and I always have and always will operate inside the laws. I deal with uk dog law on a daily basis with my not huge but successful enough for me business and am actively trying to challenge some of them. I joined purely to seek the answer to my own question, born of noticing an increasing lack of dogs at farms and small holdings(through my daily work). So rather than guess I chose to ask the relevant question to the relevant people to broaden my own understanding of working dog trends within the uk. Questions cause discussion, through discussion comes thought, through collective thought and discussion comes answers to those questions. Through answers we give rise to progress. Please don’t take this as me trying to sell dogs. My dogs are NOT for sale. Through discussion comes progression.
I did not post links to articles trying to convince farmers about livestock guardian breeds as that is not my intention to convince anyone of anything but to get an understanding of if their numbers have risen along with livestock crime or not and if so why not?
Those who ask questions and challenge things broaden their understandings and better themselves and hopefully in the long run can use that knowledge bore of questions to help others. If it’s articles about livestock guardian breeds that you would like them please use the wonderful resource that is the internet Or if you would like I can certainly point you guys in the right direction of some well written and informative, factual articles. I did not come here to sell, annoy, ruffle or argue. Purely a member of the non farming community(public/a end consumer of your products) asking questions to the people in the know(you guys/the farmers themselves).

 

[ALABAI LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN]

I would suggest that the OP needs to learn a bit more about dogs as well as the law. I have never trained a guardian dog but I suspect they are not particularly strong in the intellectual department. Guarding does not demand a high degree of intelligence or training, mostly instinct. Here in the UK, we have a duty of care towards the public. Yes, even to trespassers and burglars.

I have three German shepherds off working lines trained to a high standard but I would never leave them at free range on my farm unless under my immediate supervision and control. By control, I mean I expect them to drop instantly when told at 200 yards plus, come immediately to call, to attack on command, and to 'desist' instantly when told. I have been around working dogs all my life, starting with hunting a pack of hounds in my teens and I am now in my 80s. I can tell you now that your ideas won't work here in the UK. In other countries, trespassing is a no-no. You can even shoot them! Speak to someone with a raised voice here in the UK, even a law breaker, and the cops will be at your door to seize your guns and you won't get them back for many weeks, if at all. Now, how do I know that?

Without meaning to sound rude your suggestion is bore of ignorance and assumptions. Assumptions are the mother of all f**k ups and assume makes an ASS of U and ME. I have worked with working dogs (predominant in security/guardian and bull breeds) for over 20 yrs. am I the best, no way and far from it. I strive daily to better myself and my dogs. As you say yourself you have never owned or trained a lsg breed so again a assumption and comment bore of ignorance. Yes instinct plays part in all breeds and their jobs but NO BREED ON THE PLANET CAN DO A JOB ITS MOT TRAINED TO DO. I’m not talking about an aggressive scrap yard dog. I’m talking about highly skilled and trained livestock guardian breeds. At no point in my post did I suggest that people leave their dogs unattended but merry highlighting the grey area. A guard dog cannot be lose without a handler present on the property according to law. A livestock guardian of recognised lsg breeds can legally be left without owner/handler providing they are “raised and grazed” with flocks, are in securely fenced grounds, insured and adequate signage.
yes we do have a stupid misplaced duty of care towards even the wrong doers in society but as with all law there are loopholes and grey areas not defined in written law. I am glad that for starters your dogs are from working lines and not show lines, secondly I am pleased you took the time, effort and responsibility of training your dogs to a high level. Although I emplore you for doing this, you have merely done what any responsible dog owner should do(pet or working). All dogs great or small should be trained to Avery high level of control and obedience. Side note for your comment about guardians intellectual prowess. The German shepherd was created through 5 diff breeds, 3 of which are livestock guardians and the other two are livestock guardian breeds/shepherds. Where do you suppose the intellect of the German shepherd comes from? Pure chance? you are indeed older than myself and by this yes you have been AROUND working dogs longer than I. But I have worked daily in a professional capacity with them for over twenty years. Who has more experience is irrelevant as this is not a pi**ing contest, but I am very confident in my ability and knowledge of lsg dogs and protection trained dogs. This can be easily attested by many a happy return customer. Again I posted asking a question,not looking for confrontation or have my skill and knowledge undermined. Imagine your a crop farmer and I’m not yet I tell you to go learn about your combine. As a member of the public which farmers rely on for their income. I would like to suggest that the farming community try to involve the public more and engage with them in a way that does not further damage the already strained public/farmer relationships. Just my individual opinion. Each and everyone is entitled to there’s. thanks.

 

[Dry Rot]

Without meaning to sound rude your suggestion is bore of ignorance and assumptions. Assumptions are the mother of all f**k ups and assume makes an ASS of U and ME. I have worked with working dogs (predominant in security/guardian and bull breeds) for over 20 yrs. am I the best, no way and far from it. I strive daily to better myself and my dogs. As you say yourself you have never owned or trained a lsg breed so again a assumption and comment bore of ignorance. Yes instinct plays part in all breeds and their jobs but NO BREED ON THE PLANET CAN DO A JOB ITS MOT TRAINED TO DO. I’m not talking about an aggressive scrap yard dog. I’m talking about highly skilled and trained livestock guardian breeds. At no point in my post did I suggest that people leave their dogs unattended but merry highlighting the grey area. A guard dog cannot be lose without a handler present on the property according to law. A livestock guardian of recognised lsg breeds can legally be left without owner/handler providing they are “raised and grazed” with flocks, are in securely fenced grounds, insured and adequate signage.
yes we do have a stupid misplaced duty of care towards even the wrong doers in society but as with all law there are loopholes and grey areas not defined in written law. I am glad that for starters your dogs are from working lines and not show lines, secondly I am pleased you took the time, effort and responsibility of training your dogs to a high level. Although I emplore you for doing this, you have merely done what any responsible dog owner should do(pet or working). All dogs great or small should be trained to Avery high level of control and obedience. Side note for your comment about guardians intellectual prowess. The German shepherd was created through 5 diff breeds, 3 of which are livestock guardians and the other two are livestock guardian breeds/shepherds. Where do you suppose the intellect of the German shepherd comes from? Pure chance? you are indeed older than myself and by this yes you have been AROUND working dogs longer than I. But I have worked daily in a professional capacity with them for over twenty years. Who has more experience is irrelevant as this is not a pi**ing contest, but I am very confident in my ability and knowledge of lsg dogs and protection trained dogs. This can be easily attested by many a happy return customer. Again I posted asking a question,not looking for confrontation or have my skill and knowledge undermined. Imagine your a crop farmer and I’m not yet I tell you to go learn about your combine. As a member of the public which farmers rely on for their income. I would like to suggest that the farming community try to involve the public more and engage with them in a way that does not further damage the already strained public/farmer relationships. Just my individual opinion. Each and everyone is entitled to there’s. thanks.

I think members of TFF are quite able to make their own minds up but as you have "many a happy return customer" perhaps you could name a few so we could pop along and see these dogs in action?

 

[ALABAI LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN]

I think members of TFF are quite able to make their own minds up but as you have "many a happy return customer" perhaps you could name a few so we could pop along and see these dogs in action?

Im sure the members can make up their own minds and I hope that you yourself do not represent the masses on here as going by you that would mean they are unable to read a post and answer the question within it. It would also mean they sit at their keyboard looking to Instigate pettiness. It would also mean that they would pick out a certain part of a response and answer and acknowledge only that part because they cannot argue with the rest of it. I would gladly give references to any new customer but as I have stated I am not trying to sell, do not have dogs for sale and I’m not trying to advertise. Therefore to “”show off my dogs” would in this instance be purely show boating or touting for business of which I am doing neither. I am quite happy with my business. I am not a greedy man and it serves me and my family well. I was purely and very simply posing a particular question to a targeted audience who I would like to think had the capacity and inclination to do so of which no real answer has been given. Again I did not come here to Argue or sell but merely discuss a topic which after all is exactly what a forum is for is it not? If this is not a question you can or wish to answer then please leave the responses for others who do wish to engage in a positive manner. Thanks again for you taking time to reply but I invite you to keep petty nitpicking off the forum.

 

[Dry Rot]

A livestock guardian of recognised lsg breeds can legally be left without owner/handler providing they are “raised and grazed” with flocks, are in securely fenced grounds, insured and adequate signage.

The laws in this country are enacted by Parliament so, if what you say is true, there will be an Act of Parliament to confirm what you say. Could you please state the name and date of that Act and the specific section that refers to "recognised livestock protection dogs" and their use here in the UK?

 

[ALABAI LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN]

The laws in this country are enacted by Parliament so, if what you say is true, there will be an Act of Parliament to confirm what you say. Could you please state the name and date of that Act and the specific section that refers to "recognised livestock protection dogs" and their use here in the UK?

??yet again just clutching at straws and ignoring most parts of the post. Showing real intellect here?. Here’s a link for the UK GUIDELINES on keeping and using livestock guardian breeds and herders. Enjoy reading if you can manage that many words while I’ll dig out the info you wish for

 

[ALABAI LIVESTOCK GUARDIAN]

??yet again just clutching at straws and ignoring most parts of the post. Showing real intellect here?. Here’s a link for the UK GUIDELINES on keeping and using livestock guardian breeds and herders. Enjoy reading if you can manage that many words while I’ll dig out the info you wish for

Guidelines for Working Dogs - A Greener World

Guidelines for Working Dogs

agreenerworld.org.uk