Making a living from sheep

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
but then what would be the point of producing the wool, if you are going down the wool processing route surely it is 100 times more cheaper to buy the fleece than to grown it!
Someone would likely give it to you if you showed up with a portable shearing plant and a handy dog.

Meanwhile someone else with a million quid in the game is making peanuts off it.... the Law of "Unintended" Consequences, you might say.

Some types of business are simply hobbies for rich folk (while their investment matures), and that's what yer up against when it comes to hourly rate.

No time cost, no opportunity cost, no land cost.
Sheep4free
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Using AHDB figures, an average COP for each liveweight kg output would be £1.79, not including any labour costs.
Over the year, the British average Liveweight sqq is around £2.20.

41p/ kg x 44kg's = £18.04 "profit" per lamb.

£17k / £18.04= 942 lambs.

If you can produce 160%, that would mean you need a flock of 589 breeding ewes.

One problem, the British average liveweight sqq won’t be anywhere near 220p. The majority of lambs are sold through the late summer/Autumn, when they rarely get over 179p most years.
 

Sandpit Farm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
One problem, the British average liveweight sqq won’t be anywhere near 220p. The majority of lambs are sold through the late summer/Autumn, when they rarely get over 179p most years.

Also, we know that the top farmers will have a fantastically low COP. That means there are a lot of people with much higher COP. The trouble with working on averages is it doesn't show the range. Most farmers think they are the best and the reality is often quite different.
 
Give us a breakdown, Boss..
say for 100 ewes

1000 fert
1000 feed
200 silage
200 straw
300 minerals
300 diesel
200 tups
200 fencing
200 quad maintenance
400 vet/med
1500 rent
i assume sheep wool covers clipping and no depreciation on ewes as the make the same as culls as a fat lamb
i assume quad etc shared with cattle

9800 120 lambs after mortality (and 20 kept back) £70
700 10 cull ewes

9100 - 5500
= 3600

so actually £36/ewe
 

Yale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Depends entirely how you run your business.

If you're going to breed lambs to fatten to donate to the supermarkets, 1000 ewes

If you spun all their wool, and sold funky mittens and scarves on High Street mid-winter, many many times less sheep - as you wouldn't need FA land, FA overheads, or FA (come to that).

Sheep are profitable, farmers sell them short.

50 ewes could thus earn a you good living but who can be arsed making the easy money, when there's a much harder way?
May do now but when not if the next recession hits your customers will be buying gloves at Primani (cheapo shop).

You won’t be selling many premium ones. :nailbiting:

It can be done but it’s niche,same as direct marketing meat,there’s lots of farm shops which don‘t last long.
 

egbert

Member
Livestock Farmer
Maintenance of fences? Not my problem
Maybe the landowning/maintenance is the costly bit?

I recall you're mostly on short rentals aren't you?

I suppose that's fine, as far as it goes, but it doesn't look at the ever-after.

I'm long term tenant and owning, and regard the upkeep of stock proof fences - and facilities- as absolutely part of keeping stock.
Anyone renting to you, and either not doing it, or not accounting for it, is leaving a black hole in the maths somewhere.

(not knocking you...you're doing what you gotta do)
 

Sandpit Farm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
say for 100 ewes

1000 fert
1000 feed
200 silage
200 straw
300 minerals
300 diesel
200 tups
200 fencing
200 quad maintenance
400 vet/med
1500 rent
i assume sheep wool covers clipping and no depreciation on ewes as the make the same as culls as a fat lamb
i assume quad etc shared with cattle

9800 120 lambs after mortality (and 20 kept back) £70
700 10 cull ewes

9100 - 5500
= 3600

so actually £36/ewe

Well done for putting your head above the parapet. Assuming they take you on average 1hr/day at £10/hr, that's £3650. So that's -£50 profit on the whole enterprise based on your calculations. That doesn't take into account vehicle depreciation, building depreciation etc (assuming you are housing them at some point and driving around).
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Well done for putting your head above the parapet. Assuming they take you on average 1hr/day at £10/hr, that's £3650. So that's -£50 profit on the whole enterprise based on your calculations. That doesn't take into account vehicle depreciation, building depreciation etc (assuming you are housing them at some point and driving around).
To be fair to Boss, the OP asked for numbers required to pay an income of £17k, so I'm presuming that would be the wage/labour rate. So that's around 475 ewes on Boss's figures.
However I do agree with you that it's very light on fixed costs. When running through costings with my daughter for her enterprises it often seems pleasantly profitable, then I remember she has few if any fixed costs, just borrowing required equipment/ shed space off of Dad.
And it's quite easy to pluck round figures from the air to support your argument. (Even when doing costings for yourself). However actual figures spent often tend to creep well above a theoretical budget and the profit drops accordingly.

But as you say, well done to Boss for putting figures down. It's a thankless operation on here cos someone will always be along to shoot them down.
 

glensman

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
North Antrim
say for 100 ewes

1000 fert
1000 feed
200 silage
200 straw
300 minerals
300 diesel
200 tups
200 fencing
200 quad maintenance
400 vet/med
1500 rent
i assume sheep wool covers clipping and no depreciation on ewes as the make the same as culls as a fat lamb
i assume quad etc shared with cattle

9800 120 lambs after mortality (and 20 kept back) £70
700 10 cull ewes

9100 - 5500
= 3600

so actually £36/ewe
£200 for tups for 100 ewes, that's a bit of canny work, and every lamb sold to average £70. That's definitely an area I'll have to brush up on!
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
£200 for tups for 100 ewes, that's a bit of canny work, and every lamb sold to average £70. That's definitely an area I'll have to brush up on!
I reckon that's both in a ball park/ do-able.
But there needs to be £300 off for deadstock disposal. And £200 each for fencing and quad could be light unless everything perfectly up together before you start.
Only a 5 or 6% overspend on those round figures plus deadstock removal brings it back to £30/ewe. Suddenly it's another 100 ewes to make the op's 17k
Stick in another £500 costs for insurance, sheepdog (if scaling the numbers up), and few other fixed costs (No transport of anything allowed for) and suddenly you need nearly 700 ewes.
 

Sandpit Farm

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
I reckon that's both in a ball park/ do-able.
But there needs to be £300 off for deadstock disposal. And £200 each for fencing and quad could be light unless everything perfectly up together before you start.
Only a 5 or 6% overspend on those round figures plus deadstock removal brings it back to £30/ewe. Suddenly it's another 100 ewes to make the op's 17k
Stick in another £500 costs for insurance, sheepdog (if scaling the numbers up), and few other fixed costs (No transport of anything allowed for) and suddenly you need nearly 700 ewes.

Also £200-£300 in the swear box!!
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Depends entirely how you run your business.

If you're going to breed lambs to fatten to donate to the supermarkets, 1000 ewes

If you spun all their wool, and sold funky mittens and scarves on High Street mid-winter, many many times less sheep - as you wouldn't need FA land, FA overheads, or FA (come to that).

Sheep are profitable, farmers sell them short.

50 ewes could thus earn a you good living but who can be arsed making the easy money, when there's a much harder way?

The trouble is, aren't you subsidising your sheep by making mittens?

Those I have watched diversify seem to gradually fail as the grants run out. They probably weren't brilliant businesspersons which is why they struggled at farming........or......
they are good at business and quickly realise it's quicker and cheaper to buy carcasses, wool etc. than do the farming themselves.
If you can successfully sell your mittens, offer to buy the wool of a neighbour. You can even offer a nice premium if they promise it is local and only removed from sheep with their agreement. In a couple years you might even be able to charge them to check.
 
To be fair to Boss, the OP asked for numbers required to pay an income of £17k, so I'm presuming that would be the wage/labour rate. So that's around 475 ewes on Boss's figures.
However I do agree with you that it's very light on fixed costs. When running through costings with my daughter for her enterprises it often seems pleasantly profitable, then I remember she has few if any fixed costs, just borrowing required equipment/ shed space off of Dad.
And it's quite easy to pluck round figures from the air to support your argument. (Even when doing costings for yourself). However actual figures spent often tend to creep well above a theoretical budget and the profit drops accordingly.

But as you say, well done to Boss for putting figures down. It's a thankless operation on here cos someone will always be along to shoot them down.
the reason i dont add any fixed costs is because i assume they are needed for cattle anyway the sheep are just there to tidy the grass up in winter
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
say for 100 ewes

1000 fert
1000 feed
200 silage
200 straw
300 minerals
300 diesel
200 tups
200 fencing
200 quad maintenance
400 vet/med
1500 rent
i assume sheep wool covers clipping and no depreciation on ewes as the make the same as culls as a fat lamb
i assume quad etc shared with cattle

9800 120 lambs after mortality (and 20 kept back) £70
700 10 cull ewes

9100 - 5500
= 3600

so actually £36/ewe
say for 100 ewes

1000 fert
1000 feed
200 silage
200 straw
300 minerals
300 diesel
200 tups
200 fencing
200 quad maintenance
400 vet/med
1500 rent
i assume sheep wool covers clipping and no depreciation on ewes as the make the same as culls as a fat lamb
i assume quad etc shared with cattle

9800 120 lambs after mortality (and 20 kept back) £70
700 10 cull ewes

9100 - 5500
= 3600

so actually £36/ewe
£200 on tups is certainly doable for 100 ewes. Tags adds at least another £150 though Insurance, deadstock disposal, footbath, sundries more sundries, they all add up! I do ours without a quad but the dog costs at least as much as your £200 figure! I think my vet/med bill is a tad more than £400.. our heptavac and terramycine foot spray bills alone would be close to that! £200 silage isn't anywhere close to what ours eat in terms of the value of small bale hay...! 100 ewes is a far bit of work for a meager return :cautious: but they graze the perm pasture so I can claim the ag dole money
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
The trouble is, aren't you subsidising your sheep by making mittens?

Those I have watched diversify seem to gradually fail as the grants run out. They probably weren't brilliant businesspersons which is why they struggled at farming........or......
they are good at business and quickly realise it's quicker and cheaper to buy carcasses, wool etc. than do the farming themselves.
If you can successfully sell your mittens, offer to buy the wool of a neighbour. You can even offer a nice premium if they promise it is local and only removed from sheep with their agreement. In a couple years you might even be able to charge them to check.
Maybe. It's probably as much a subsidy as using a payment to allow one's self to operate a poor business at a loss - simply for convenience sake

The public want products, not raw commodity, so really it isn't "subsidising" somuch as adding value for financial gain
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
May do now but when not if the next recession hits your customers will be buying gloves at Primani (cheapo shop).

You won’t be selling many premium ones. :nailbiting:

It can be done but it’s niche,same as direct marketing meat,there’s lots of farm shops which don‘t last long.
Lots of farms won't be lasting long either, for balance.
Not if they keep doing what isn't working and "hoping they pay us more for what we produce", because "they" will only ever pay enough to maintain a steady supply.
(That's when it becomes a numbers game as per what I assumed to be the OP's question) -attempting to starve a profit into a business with no marketing.
If profits per ewe are only ten pounds, then that's easily fixed: do less farming, and use the time a bit more effectively - if I have cold hands, then some mitts are probably worth a tenner to me at the time, and there's more than one pair of mittens in a fleece
 
Last edited:

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 79 42.0%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 35.1%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.0%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,291
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top