Map for Direct Drilling

[ajd132]

I can see where you are coming from. However….

If you choose a good year to start DDing and/or soils are in good condition, such as soon after harvesting the previous crop or growing a cover crop in between crops, not disturbing soil or disturbing it as little as possible will also provide enough drainage on what would become wetter soils on the late Autumn and Winter.

The previous decaying crop roots and the earthworms you didn’t kill will provide your drainage and the longer you have been doing DD, the Organic Matter builds up to both hold onto moisture in a drought and drain it away in times of excess water. The soils become more alive rather than getting deader and deader, the more times you Power-Harrow it, therefore building up ever increasing problems of needing more fertilisers and sprays to achieve yield.

Because you didn’t disturb the soil, you no longer need floatation wheels to stop ruts in the tramlines.
Some of my tramlines are now in their 4th crop of use without any ruts whatsoever!
The only thing that you have to get used to, is looking at what might look as a stubble field of the previous crop until the following Spring, because it is taller than the crop you are now growing.


We are all on the cusp of having to yet again learn a completely new system of support as BPS is lost to be replaced by a revolutionary system of ELMs and SFI’s, which are frightening to comprehend, especially as they are not real farming.
However, here is a system that is real farming, totally logical when you think about it and understand it, which is nothing like as frightening and saves a busting shed load of money!
On top of which will earn points to be rewarded by ELMs and SFI cash.

In theory - Overhead savings of £100-200/ha, SFI of say £130 doing both advanced levels, carbon selling of £50-100 (even more in the future?), variable cost savings abit unknown as much more long term so cannot guess at that yet. They key is keep yielding the same and not having big reductions, it’s pointless otherwise and that’s the skill in it.
So the same yields, less cash risked, ability to acces private markets and government incentives you are £300-450/ha up from the start before you start getting into the more long term agronomic benefits of it which is harder to quantify.
that a reasonable amount of wheat at these record high prices, at more normal prices you need about 3t/ha more in ploughed/min till to beat it for true NET margin.

 

[alomy75]

Funny you say this, there is a thread running on a drilling Facebook group of someone who has sold his 3 year old Mzuri, straw rake and special ld subsoilet and going back to top down and vaderstadt. Saying the land is now compacted and subsoiling doesn’t work, wet areas appearing.
Obviously loads of comments ‘direct drilling doesn’t work’.

I’m currently looking to get a LD subsoiler but things like this worry me…they have to lift the whole profile. We were (literally) crawling along with a challenger and 5 legs this year but were lifting the whole profile visually 12” deep. When I look at these LD things I do wonder how much they will achieve in comparison. We had destroyed the field in question with beet lifting the year before (don’t ask) so I’m just hoping they were extreme conditions and an LD would be sufficient in a normal year

 

[ajd132]

I’m currently looking to get a LD subsoiler but things like this worry me…they have to lift the whole profile. We were (literally) crawling along with a challenger and 5 legs this year but were lifting the whole profile visually 12” deep. When I look at these LD things I do wonder how much they will achieve in comparison. We had destroyed the field in question with beet lifting the year before (don’t ask) so I’m just hoping they were extreme conditions and an LD would be sufficient in a normal year

I did some this year on some headlands and I don’t think it achieves a lot for us. I think where we do have issue on some fields the damage is fairly near the surface, I am thinking about a second hand Claydon to use on targeted fields with issues and to drill beans/give us a wetter weather drill. I don’t think low disturbance subsoiling is the answer to any shallow compaction issues we see sometimes.

 

[Two Tone]

I’m currently looking to get a LD subsoiler but things like this worry me…they have to lift the whole profile. We were (literally) crawling along with a challenger and 5 legs this year but were lifting the whole profile visually 12” deep. When I look at these LD things I do wonder how much they will achieve in comparison. We had destroyed the field in question with beet lifting the year before (don’t ask) so I’m just hoping they were extreme conditions and an LD would be sufficient in a normal year

Do you need to use an LD subsoiler?
The past 2 seasons have been very wet Autumns and Winters, followed by very dry Springs and (early) Summers. Which have created massive cracks in the soil which probably have done far more good than any Subsoiler.
EXCEPT when you have damage caused by harvesting Beet in those wet Autumns, which is inevitable.

The trouble being that if you grow Beet and this happens, trying to go DD and Regenerative, it is going to be a real struggle, if not impossible, until unfortunately, you stop growing such crops as Beet!

Funny you say this, there is a thread running on a drilling Facebook group of someone who has sold his 3 year old Mzuri, straw rake and special ld subsoilet and going back to top down and vaderstadt. Saying the land is now compacted and subsoiling doesn’t work, wet areas appearing.
Obviously loads of comments ‘direct drilling doesn’t work’.

Is a Mzuri a Direct drill?
Yes insofar that it is a one pass drill without the need for prior cultivation.
No insofar that it doesn’t need prior cultivation, but moves and stirs up far too much soil, causing OM damage and loss of Carbon.
Perhaps therein lays the problem and why it doesn’t work causing wet areas to appear?

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

I did some this year on some headlands and I don’t think it achieves a lot for us. I think where we do have issue on some fields the damage is fairly near the surface, I am thinking about a second hand Claydon to use on targeted fields with issues and to drill beans/give us a wetter weather drill. I don’t think low disturbance subsoiling is the answer to any shallow compaction issues we see sometimes.

Apparently lupins will do the same job. I have yet to try it though...

 

[ajd132]

Apparently lupins will do the same job. I have yet to try it though...

No thanks, I don’t want to grow niche crops as a cash crop although make use of them in a cover crop.

 

[ajd132]

Do you need to use an LD subsoiler?
The past 2 seasons have been very wet Autumns and Winters, followed by very dry Springs and (early) Summers. Which have created massive cracks in the soil which probably have done far more good than any Subsoiler.
EXCEPT when you have damage caused by harvesting Beet in those wet Autumns, which is inevitable.

The trouble being that if you grow Beet and this happens, trying to go DD and Regenerative, it is going to be a real struggle, if not impossible, until unfortunately, you stop growing such crops as Beet!


Is a Mzuri a Direct drill?
Yes insofar that it is a one pass drill without the need for prior cultivation.
No insofar that it doesn’t need prior cultivation, but moves and stirs up far too much soil, causing OM damage and loss of Carbon.
Perhaps therein lays the problem and why it doesn’t work causing wet areas to appear?

I did some headlands we damaged last autumn.
reference the Mzuri, I said exactly what you have said!
People getting really goood results from mounted Claydon’s around here, i wouldn’t use one as a mainline drill but deploy it strategically and for beans/wetter weather.
some fields I am learning take longer to respond to zero till than others and a leading tine 3/4 inches in good conditions can help along the way.

 

[alomy75]

Do you need to use an LD subsoiler?
The past 2 seasons have been very wet Autumns and Winters, followed by very dry Springs and (early) Summers. Which have created massive cracks in the soil which probably have done far more good than any Subsoiler.
EXCEPT when you have damage caused by harvesting Beet in those wet Autumns, which is inevitable.

The trouble being that if you grow Beet and this happens, trying to go DD and Regenerative, it is going to be a real struggle, if not impossible, until unfortunately, you stop growing such crops as Beet!


Is a Mzuri a Direct drill?
Yes insofar that it is a one pass drill without the need for prior cultivation.
No insofar that it doesn’t need prior cultivation, but moves and stirs up far too much soil, causing OM damage and loss of Carbon.
Perhaps therein lays the problem and why it doesn’t work causing wet areas to appear?

Yes the beet will hopefully go but we were contracted for 3 years with this next season being the last. Hadn’t started dd when we committed to it and at that time beet was a better gm than winter wheat. It’s a shame because it really has cleaned the blackgrass up. Last season was my first dd year in places and headlands suffered where the combine had turned. This year I’ve just done the headlands with a 7 leg Simba LD-equipped blench (bit of a lash up) but the headlands are as good, if not better than the field centre. As mentioned previously on this thread our land does respond to subsoiling…I just want something quicker, less disturbance and cheaper than the crawler and flatliner. It’s got Simba LD legs on but still couldn’t drill anything other than beans into it ‘direct’. As you say; once/if the beet goes hopefully it will be surplus.

 

[Two Tone]

I did some headlands we damaged last autumn.
reference the Mzuri, I said exactly what you have said!
People getting really goood results from mounted Claydon’s around here, i wouldn’t use one as a mainline drill but deploy it strategically and for beans/wetter weather.
some fields I am learning take longer to respond to zero till than others and a leading tine 3/4 inches in good conditions can help along the way.

I’ve known Geoff Claydon for at least the past 35 years. He is a wonderful, very clever and inventive guy.
We both used to be members of the Kenneth Wilson Anglia, Agronomy discussion group, founded by a a wonderful forward thinking guy called Rolland (call-it-a-spade!) Mallet.

Geoff’s idea behind his drills/straw rake are wonderful and have worked very successfully.
However, some us in the wetter west of the UK, who have been “Claydonned” are finding that Blackgrass is becoming a worse issue due to the the excessive soil movement waking it up. Their solution being to still have to drill as late as possible to get around this problem.
I wonder just how late we can get away with it, while not creating soil damage and ending up with high yielding crop?
However, if you have lower rainfall area such as Suffolk and/or don’t have a serious BG problem or are on well drained/free draining soils, it is still a great technique and has its place.

Well done Geoff. There are a lot of farmers out there that owe you a huge debt of gratitude.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

No thanks, I don’t want to grow niche crops as a cash crop although make use of them in a cover crop.

I meant in a cover crop. The minute you think you can combine it , you start risking money.

 

[Two Tone]

I meant in a cover crop. The minute you think you can combine it , you start risking money.

There was a great guy called John Hardy, another ex-Kenneth Wilson Anglia, seed merchant who went onto to co-found Grainseed Ltd at Eye in Suffolk, who would want to convince you otherwise with regard risking money when growing and harvesting Lupins. At that time, he may have been correct!

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

There was a great guy called John Hardy, another ex-Kenneth Wilson Anglia, seed merchant who went onto to co-found Grainseed Ltd at Eye in Suffolk, who would want to convince you otherwise with regard risking money when growing and harvesting Lupins. At that time, he may have been correct!

The breakthrough for me came when I was direct drilling beans into cold wet clay pretty late one April. I just knew it was going to lose money. With that in mind, I thought if it's going to lose money why don't I do something for the soil? So I put a basic summer cover crop in for £20 a hectare. That was my stop loss, no further sprays, no combining and early drilling on the green in September.

I've done it since, including this year. It's a bit pathetic on a farm this size not to crop everything but I think it does the soil good to have a big bushy mix with 5 or 6 flowering species. Got a bad blackgrass field planned for this year and trying lupins in the mix for the first time.

 

[Clive]

Some 40 odd years ago, there was a rather famous Farm Machinery lecturer from Harper who said that there are all sorts of cultivators in the world, but that basically they all do the same thing.

He also said that most of them are used to excess, because when farmers are feeling down or miserable, there is nothing like getting out there and doing some cultivating. He called this RECREATIONAL CULTIVATION!

As regards RECREATIONAL, he was referring to a recreational pastime which makes farmers feel better because they think they are doing something positive.

Where’s in reality, it just turns out that 40 years later, with regards the soil, I have learned that RE - CREATIONAL (as in creating something positive) is absolutely the last thing that cultivating soils is doing. In fact, completely the opposite!

No where in nature does soil self cultivate. As soon as we do it, it looses Carbon and degenerates.

Therefore NOT CULTIVATING the soil is the true RE - CREATIONAL Cultivation. Because it REGENERATES it.



There are a lot of folks on TFF who helped teach me this, such as @Clive , @Warnesworth and his colleague Steve Townsend and many other TFF DD’ers. You know who you all are.

Also in reality you absolutely cannot teach anybody anything, unless they absolutely want to learn!



I was at a conference on Thursday, where a farmer pointed out that where veg and root crops are grown, the soil must continue to be ploughed or deep cultivated.
However, in reality, when you have Regenerated the soil and its structure has improved enough, the only reason for ploughing is to create a soil medium to allow harvesting machinery to work.
Just as we have seen a massive improvement in what DD drills can now do, root and veg machinery manufacturers need to catch up in creating harvesters that will work in soils that don’t need ploughing ridges or beds to be created.
For instance planting such crops under a bed of straw, compost mulch or composted FYM. All of which could add to the Organic matter after harvest.
There is a lot more to learn yet.

Very true what you say re veg production needing to catch up, whenever I speak at events or to farmer groups thee are 2 question I can guarantee will be asked. #1 is the obvious "how will you do it without glyphosate when its banned". #2 is I"t can't work for roots and people got to eat roots and veg"

I think its is possible for Veg and roots and there are some pioneering examples already, what needs to happen is massive innovation in those sectors to develop the machines and techniques / agronomy to make it possible ...... as has happened in cereals, this will not be or happen overnight but if we can put men on the m moon Im quite sure its not beyond out wit to work out how to grow a potato without am plough !

 

[Suffolk Serf]

Very true what you say re veg production needing to catch up, whenever I speak at events or to farmer groups thee are 2 question I can guarantee will be asked. #1 is the obvious "how will you do it without glyphosate when its banned". #2 is I"t can't work for roots and people got to eat roots and veg"

I think its is possible for Veg and roots and there are some pioneering examples already, what needs to happen is massive innovation in those sectors to develop the machines and techniques / agronomy to make it possible ...... as has happened in cereals, this will not be or happen overnight but if we can put men on the m moon Im quite sure its not beyond out wit to work out how to grow a potato without am plough !

Totally agree.
"No Dig" veg gardening is becoming very popular. To transfer it to a field scale only needs sowing and planting technology to catch up to make it possible.

 

[ajd132]

I’ve known Geoff Claydon for at least the past 35 years. He is a wonderful, very clever and inventive guy.
We both used to be members of the Kenneth Wilson Anglia, Agronomy discussion group, founded by a a wonderful forward thinking guy called Rolland (call-it-a-spade!) Mallet.

Geoff’s idea behind his drills/straw rake are wonderful and have worked very successfully.
However, some us in the wetter west of the UK, who have been “Claydonned” are finding that Blackgrass is becoming a worse issue due to the the excessive soil movement waking it up. Their solution being to still have to drill as late as possible to get around this problem.
I wonder just how late we can get away with it, while not creating soil damage and ending up with high yielding crop?
However, if you have lower rainfall area such as Suffolk and/or don’t have a serious BG problem or are on well drained/free draining soils, it is still a great technique and has its place.

Well done Geoff. There are a lot of farmers out there that owe you a huge debt of gratitude.

Agree, hence why I would use it as a strategic tool. They are really too high disturbance when it comes to blackgrass.
Good for beans on clay, I dare you to try and direct disc drill beans into clay!

 

[Two Tone]

Very true what you say re veg production needing to catch up, whenever I speak at events or to farmer groups thee are 2 question I can guarantee will be asked. #1 is the obvious "how will you do it without glyphosate when its banned". #2 is I"t can't work for roots and people got to eat roots and veg"

I think its is possible for Veg and roots and there are some pioneering examples already, what needs to happen is massive innovation in those sectors to develop the machines and techniques / agronomy to make it possible ...... as has happened in cereals, this will not be or happen overnight but if we can put men on the m moon Im quite sure its not beyond out wit to work out how to grow a potato without am plough !

Thank you. But I should really credit Steve Townsend of Soil First Farming re his thoughts on No-till veg production and the fact the Machinery manufacturers need to catch up on the No-till harvesting side of the veg equation.
He has successfully grown potatoes, carrots and parsnips in his own garden without disturbing soil, under FYM compost.

Could we see @Clive returning to growing potatoes?
Now, there is a thought!

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Agree, hence why I would use it as a strategic tool. They are really too high disturbance when it comes to blackgrass.
Good for beans on clay, I dare you to try and direct disc drill beans into clay!

Bean there done that

 

[Two Tone]

Agree, hence why I would use it as a strategic tool. They are really too high disturbance when it comes to blackgrass.
Good for beans on clay, I dare you to try and direct disc drill beans into clay!

Bean there done that

Since the demise of Simazine and such like products, why do we still need to drill beans so deep?

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Since the demise of Simazine and such like products, why do we still need to drill beans so deep?

I would say it depends on your corvid population. Ours are absolute experts at finding the row and digging out seeds if we drill out of season. I now try to avoid that by having lots of residue or tall stubble to hide it

 

[ajd132]

Since the demise of Simazine and such like products, why do we still need to drill beans so deep?

Nothing to do with depth it’s just really doesn’t seem to work at all. Beans in a little trench with wet feet. Even just a direct tine drill seems to work much better.
I would argue that winter beans want drilling early and deep in a zero till situation in order for the beans to get going before the soil cools but allow a long period before emergence to allow just pre em kerb and glyphosate.
Disc drill you can’t go very deep so you have to drill later which inevitably means a wet smeared slot.