Maybe some relevant pictures to DD

[Jim Bullock]

Stephen,

I know what you mean, but again it is easier said than done here in reality....

Regarding flexibility, I`m already in the middle of a more or less weird rotation, coming every 3rd year with beans and also with oats as spring crops to fill up the missed winter crops.....

Regarding earlier planting, it was impossible to plant osr 2011 as fields were a foot high flooded by end of august from the night after combining wheat on, straw swathes swimming around. Planting barley was impossible as well then, only wheat. And spring beans, oats next spring. Means next harvest 2012 started around 22nd august with wheat, trying to get osr in then which resulted in the pictures posted recently.... Then rain first 2 weeks of september, let combine the beans middle of september when neighbours where busy drilling winter cereals the only 2 days possible. Then rain again. Next was drilling wheat middle of october when rain stopped.

Regarding your advice, the problem is that I haven`t found a sustainable way to plant next crop before harvesting previous - and that in the middle of 2 weeks rain when you don`t know when or even if the crops will be harvested......

Actually, last snow melted 13th april, then a dry period until mid may, now already 80mm in last 10 days - just came in from spraying, drove through a lot of water ponding here and there..... Lucky me as I have no cows need to cut silage, dairy farmers are really poor actually as it rains every other day......

Hartwig
There must be some place between you an me where everything is just perfect (Denmark...perhaps Soren's farm) because I have sympathy with most of your comments and observations as I find myself in exactly the same situation....Five years ago everything was working well for us...our soils were in good order we had a good crop rotation..then 2007 we had a massive summer flood which did a lot of damage but it dried up and we had a harvest and got our crops drilled in the Autumn...but 2008 was a total washout and we only just got our crops harvested and very few autumn sown crops survived (no OSR and only a small area of wheat)...2009 we had a lot of spring sown crops including a large area of grain maize () which was harvested late and had to be followed by another spring crop....2010 was not good due to the effect of 2009....2011 was a brilliant year...good crops...OK prices...(made a profit..!) but its been downhill from then onwards...I am looking at ways of "weather-proofing " our farming system...do I buy a plough and a Simtech-T-Sem drill which will enable me to do everything from direct-drilling through to working in a plough based system, do I go down the Claydon/Mzuri route .. do I stick with what we have got and just hope that the weather becomes "more normal"...

 

[Hartwig]

Jim,

I guess you`re right with Soren`s farm - seems to be farmers paradise with perfect weather, nice soils, etc. Will go for a visit next month.....

Making farming system weather-proof is my main goal as well, but not sure what to do so far.....only thing I`m sure of is that it isn`t good to put any steel deep (>5cm) in the soil unless it is really dry and stays dry until a proper crop is growing again and unless there was a real compaction or other issue - I can´t see that I have these points here really or can be sure of it.

 

[Elmsted]

Stephen,

I know what you mean, but again it is easier said than done here in reality....

Regarding flexibility, I`m already in the middle of a more or less weird rotation, coming every 3rd year with beans and also with oats as spring crops to fill up the missed winter crops.....

Regarding earlier planting, it was impossible to plant osr 2011 as fields were a foot high flooded by end of august from the night after combining wheat on, straw swathes swimming around. Planting barley was impossible as well then, only wheat. And spring beans, oats next spring. Means next harvest 2012 started around 22nd august with wheat, trying to get osr in then which resulted in the pictures posted recently.... Then rain first 2 weeks of september, let combine the beans middle of september when neighbours where busy drilling winter cereals the only 2 days possible. Then rain again. Next was drilling wheat middle of october when rain stopped.

Regarding your advice, the problem is that I haven`t found a sustainable way to plant next crop before harvesting previous - and that in the middle of 2 weeks rain when you don`t know when or even if the crops will be harvested......

Actually, last snow melted 13th april, then a dry period until mid may, now already 80mm in last 10 days - just came in from spraying, drove through a lot of water ponding here and there..... Lucky me as I have no cows need to cut silage, dairy farmers are really poor actually as it rains every other day......

Yet only as an observation you posted pictures of how well your neighbours crops this year. So it is possible unless he had different weather. But there is no way a Moore or a JD are going to get rid of large amounts of water. Proper subsoiler and or plough does a lot more. And your latitude in harvest 2012 starting harvest 22 of August. What about spinning seed on pre harvest, or liquid sunshine.
That is some of the flexibility I meant. But if you for what ever reason you didn't get winter crops planted in 2011 then one ends up slowly adding to problems surely.

 

[Hartwig]

Yep, neighbours have good crops where they ploughed, ph-drilled EARLY - there are enough crap crops around or even reseeded after ploughing at the same time I was DDing !! So the plough has a big advantage in sucking up moisture after seeding which DDing isn`t in that amount - but if nature is against you, it can fail with all equipment....

Good looking crops of osr were seeded after barley between 10th and 20th august (where my first crop to combine was still ripening) and winter cereals drilled those 3 days in september when I was combining beans. There are enough good crops drilled in october, as there are very good areas on my fields as well, but also enough failed conventional crops like I have also.

So, from my observation, there is no 100% foolproof system available. DDing is certainly more critical in many situations than others, but......

Regarding need for deep loosening I have seen a field with nearly no crop for 2 years hammered by weather and rain and very solid, lifeless soil - drilled oats in with Moore and had perfect weather behind resulted in a wonderful crop with 8.6 to/ha dry yield. So I can`t see the need for subsoiling : if the weather is with you, it will grow anyway and fill all soil with roots, if the weather is against you, it will leave more damage than good !? So what`s the point about subsoiling ?

 

[Elmsted]

Yep, neighbours have good crops where they ploughed, ph-drilled EARLY - there are enough crap crops around or even reseeded after ploughing at the same time I was DDing !! So the plough has a big advantage in sucking up moisture after seeding which DDing isn`t in that amount - but if nature is against you, it can fail with all equipment....

Good looking crops of osr were seeded after barley between 10th and 20th august (where my first crop to combine was still ripening) and winter cereals drilled those 3 days in september when I was combining beans. There are enough good crops drilled in october, as there are very good areas on my fields as well, but also enough failed conventional crops like I have also.

So, from my observation, there is no 100% foolproof system available. DDing is certainly more critical in many situations than others, but......

Regarding need for deep loosening I have seen a field with nearly no crop for 2 years hammered by weather and rain and very solid, lifeless soil - drilled oats in with Moore and had perfect weather behind resulted in a wonderful crop with 8.6 to/ha dry yield. So I can`t see the need for subsoiling : if the weather is with you, it will grow anyway and fill all soil with roots, if the weather is against you, it will leave more damage than good !? So what`s the point about subsoiling ?

Hartwig.

In plain English I suggest you and other get away from the precious view of DD and all your jointly perceived benefits if you is going to be outa business as you hang on to a pre planned and accepted dogma. Dogma is a rejection of other possibilities. Bit like pulling an Engine powered binder accross the midwest of America with a horse. Or UK taxes on aeroplanes landing in UK pay big pollution taxes, and think it is going to solve global warming.
As I wrote earlier get flexible and on you have to it is easy. Every compromise you make to avaoid the failings of the system roll on in to the nexr year and become a self fulfilling prophecy that DD does either not work or requires sumething special. It is but a way to plant a crop. The add ons are pertinent only when you can use them be that nutrition or whatever floats your boat. If you is out as the inflexability of les than blinkered thinking means you are hardly able to advocate something when the facts are it did not stack up.
IMHO

 

[Hartwig]

Stephen,

what I wrote were my observations - you took the wrong conclusion, which is not your fault as I didn`t make it clear enough....

Your "plain english" is a bit diffcult to understand for me, so maybe I take the wrong conclusion as well now....

Me and many other DDers from the not only sunny side of the world (except Soren for example, who seems to have brilliant weather most time) have realized that the south-american way of DDing is not 100% possible in europe, Argentinian climate with 16°C average temperature and low rainfall is not what we can compare here with mid-europe. So we are all trying to adapt the system, be it shallow cultivation, different rotation, different planters for different circumstances, etc. etc. I`m in the middle of this process and far away to hang on a dogma which I tried to do in the beginning - that was the time I was your chauffeur through england.... I know I have to do it different from south-american-style and be more flexible than I am already. Problem is, for my small farm I can`t afford having all available kit on farm for every situation, which most of us can`t. So I have to stick with what I have and buy some cheap used things here and there to add more flexibility.
Actually I think a Howard Rotavator could be such a thing to have good chemical-free weed control (for fescue as example) and get a good tilth for seeding in some situations !?

The only "dogma" I would stick to actually is that pulling any steel deep through the soil is not necessary in most situations - but of course, maybe in some time I could change mind as I make new experiences.....and as always: afterwards it`s easy to judge....if I would have known at seeding time last 3 years how much rain we got afterwards I would have done things different or not at all !!

 

[Elmsted]

Hartwig as a low cost guide which suits your grunt up front. Straddle each time on your area. The the get your Moore or JD out it's a good un.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/twin-leg-subsoiler/321128735333?_trksid=p2047675.m1850&_trkparms=aid=222002&algo=SIC.FIT&ao=1&asc=11&meid=7979076262168267792&pid=100011&prg=1005&rk=2&sd=221203029004&

Always straight legs not curved almost imperceptible surface movement. As always work on angles.

This much dust nothing sticking July try this.

 

[Elmsted]

To those convinced on weed control.

 

[Elmsted]

Standard size wellington boot after 15 years of no cropping. NO smearing. NO skims as they just create problems down the line. As your picture/diagram a spread of things through the soil profile.


Again more dust. Do it and as on many threads , posts it aint end of world. Plant earlier. And as in picture further up this thread has nort been ploughed since. OM almost off scale . But restructure on it's own no way Hosea.

 

[Hartwig]

Just as an update to give you an idea what I have to work with : after the last snow melted here on 16th april we had a four-weeks-window with dry weather, thank god ! Then in the last two weeks of may we got 100mm rain, water ponding here and there, making even spraying a little challenge. The spring crops that looked so beautiful from corner to corner are now turning yellow in the lower parts and somewhere between, drowned.

 

[Elmsted]

Just as an update to give you an idea what I have to work with : after the last snow melted here on 16th april we had a four-weeks-window with dry weather, thank god ! Then in the last two weeks of may we got 100mm rain, water ponding here and there, making even spraying a little challenge. The spring crops that looked so beautiful from corner to corner are now turning yellow in the lower parts and somewhere between, drowned.

Surely Hartwig there is a simple motive for ponding. Which we all know why. Get some remedial action. Not stick with what you want irrespective of weather.

 

[Hartwig]

I give up .....
Stephen, I have greatest respect of your life-experience.....but you seem to have not experienced what it means to get 50mm rain in 24 hours on already soaked loam. You can`t avoid ponding, no matter how deep you did "remedial action" before - only if you have an open inlet to the drainage for surface water, it will quicker flow away, but I have it in some places and even there it took 2 to 3 days to flow away as all pipes and ditches were full and blocking back for some time.

To be honest, I can see that the neighbours patches with again and again standing water become even worse with good meant "remedial action" in these wet years.

Cold steel deep in the soil is not good, unless it is really dry and stays dry for some weeks !!

 

[SilliamWhale]

I'm not sure if this is relavan but if you felt ploughing could give you the fresh start this you need autumn Hartwig then you should do it. I don't like ploughing because I hate erosion and I think it does damage soil but if things are really crappy for you then that may help, I would do it too if I felt that was what was needed if crops haven't grown well to give you the biological structure you need.

It helps you move on psychologically plough it and see where you can go from there with no till. It doesn't matter if you don't really want to do it or what the neighbours think etc. with a lot of no till techniques we are pretty much on our own apart from this forum so you cannot expect to get it right always. Its not about ploughing being wrong and no till being right. Its about you farming the way you want to and need to but sometimes something comes along which means you take one step back to go two forward next time.

Its a game of snakes and ladders really - I'm not saying ploughing is super duper, I think its an immensely damaging process btw.

 

[Elmsted]

I give up .....
Stephen, I have greatest respect of your life-experience.....but you seem to have not experienced what it means to get 50mm rain in 24 hours on already soaked loam. You can`t avoid ponding, no matter how deep you did "remedial action" before - only if you have an open inlet to the drainage for surface water, it will quicker flow away, but I have it in some places and even there it took 2 to 3 days to flow away as all pipes and ditches were full and blocking back for some time.

To be honest, I can see that the neighbours patches with again and again standing water become even worse with good meant "remedial action" in these wet years.

Cold steel deep in the soil is not good, unless it is really dry and stays dry for some weeks !!

York has also given up on you as well. I have had 80 mm in 36 hours hours here. Your obsession with never do anything except that to which you are a convert will result no doubt overtime your neighbour farming whilst you fiddle as Rome burns. Your time scale is limited to a few short years and then assuming this is the normal. Get some cultivations done. Sorry but straight put.

 

[Jim Bullock]

I give up .....
Stephen, I have greatest respect of your life-experience.....but you seem to have not experienced what it means to get 50mm rain in 24 hours on already soaked loam. You can`t avoid ponding, no matter how deep you did "remedial action" before - only if you have an open inlet to the drainage for surface water, it will quicker flow away, but I have it in some places and even there it took 2 to 3 days to flow away as all pipes and ditches were full and blocking back for some time.

To be honest, I can see that the neighbours patches with again and again standing water become even worse with good meant "remedial action" in these wet years.

Cold steel deep in the soil is not good, unless it is really dry and stays dry for some weeks !!

Hartwig

I suspect that your soils and abnormal weather conditions are quite similar to what we experienced in 2007, 2008 and again in 2012..Autumn 07 was good and we got all our crops planted... 08 was a total disaster and we had many ha's in 09 of poor spring crops as a result .. Autumn 09 we ploughed over 25% of the farm and and had some really good crops in 2010 as a result...since then I have been brain-washed and felt that the only way forward was no-till...big mistake...when conditions are right (first wheats and some break crops) then go for it... but if you are farming in an unpredictable climate then you have to adapt and do what is best on the day....With the benefit of hindsight in 2013 I would have gone out and ploughed our entire farm during one of the drier spells in February...levelled it in early March and drilled it all in the week of April 15-20th... No-Till has worked well on 30% of our land this year...min-till (Flexi-tine + harrow) has worked well on about another 30% and the remaining area was either drilled (DD) too early (March) or too late (Late April/May) and will not produce much of a crop..
If you farm in a part of the world where you have predictable climate then you can stick to "one" system (ie: direct-drilling in South America) but if you farm in an area such as ours where weather and soil conditions are very variable then you must adapt your system accordingly...My present drill works well as no-till drill (Kuhn) but is only average in a tilled situation...my next drill will be one that works well in a tilled situation and can work as a no-till drill...

 

[Richard III]

Having been through the worst autumn in living memory here, I am still in no hurry to move soil. I still believe soil is best left unmoved if possible. One obvious problem with moving soil is if the following harvest is wet. Last autumn my combine travelled with little visible damage, while in the field next door a tracked lexion was leaving ruts every where and getting stuck.

I have similar rolling landscape to Hartwig and the only solution to run off into the hollows is good drainage in the hollows themselves. The plough power harrow brigade around here have had far more trouble than me with soil run off and flooded hollows. Their hollows flood, then the soil caps and refuses to drain. I would not have to walk far to take pictures of floods still in fields around here.

This year my crops vary from great to rubbish, probably not too different to other farms in the locality. However I'm sure I have done far less soil damage than anyone else around here. My biggest problem in wet weather is still SLUGS.

 

[Hartwig]

Stephen,

some pictures taken this morning while around with last fertilizer to show you what I am fiddling with.

Richard, your post could have been mine, exactly the same here !!



My beans, drilled with Moore in stripped oats. Notice the wet spot in the middle where water is ponding again and again after heavy rains....that`s what I`m talking about.

Spring wheat drilled with Moore in stripped oats, was looking poor all the time but is catching up a bit now - would have been better with Gen-coulters and fertilizer underneath, but the straw made a tine impossible....
Notice the spot with ponding water also here in the left.....

Field was drilled 28th october, but stopped in the mud in the middle of the field and it never stopped raining after, so lower and loamy parts just drowned where I redrilled spring barley (turning yellow where water was ponding now....) and finished the field with oats in the background/left side - notice the wet spot where the oats are turning brown in ponding water.....

I have good parts and poor parts and also redrilled parts - I guess everybody here has this, and I would say that every field was ploughed here, only mine where DDed. No min-till any more in the 3rd wet autumn last year as this is the worst what can happen. Here`s a picture of a single neighbours field that was not pulled out and redrilled with maize for AD, field was fully cultivated, ploughed under not bad conditions and drilled with ph-combo, all the latest stuff which is recommended by salesmen and advisors - and ?? More or less failed !!

Here are two neighbours hollows where water is ponding after heavy rains like it is doing on my fields as well and where Elmsted is advocating to cultivate or to do "remedial action" - they do it again and again !! They open up the drainage pipes to see what`s wrong and find the pipes in nice dry soil and water and mud on top - so they cultivate it deep to let the water go down to the drains, be it deep ploughing or subsoiling. Then after the next rain the get stuck to the axles and do the same procedure, but try to do the "remedial action" deeper and closer to the drains to get the water in there - after the next rain they get stuck even deeper, etc. etc. etc.
I can drive through the water in my hollows with only a little wheelmark, wait for dry weather, plant a covercrop there if I want to and let the roots do the job.

Why cultivate ??

Is rome burning ?? look at the pictures.

 

[Simon C]

Well done Hartwig, your beans and wheat look brilliant, given the conditions that you have had to work in.

Don't listen to them others, we know ploughing/subsoiling just makes it worse. The only cure is to get something growing in the low areas and let the roots sort them out, your problem is that rain keeps coming back and stopping anything growing. We have been lucky here, it has stayed dry since March and Spring crops are growing in the low areas OK. I have been amazed how the low holes that have had a foot of water standing all winter have dried out and then drilled over without any wheel marks or smearing at all. Proper, mature no-till soil retains it's structure even when under water for six months.

Sorry to our European friends for the Imperial measurements, a foot is as long as a foot, you know, the thing on the end of your leg where you put you boot, or 30 cm if that helps.

 

[Clive]

Hartwig - there is a lot of sense in getting something growing on the poor areas as clearly these need the most help

Where I have a bare spot or headland in wheat I have just drilled sunflowers to get something repairing that soil, adding to OM and getting soil life going again

Bare soil only gets worse I reckon

 

[Elmsted]

Hartwig

You regard these as a disaster. From my way it is nothing just down to scale. With your topography up and down and hills etc. You if worried just need to drain the areas .

We do not have drainage and regard it as a fact of life some years they dry up and we can get in and root around a bit. But easier just get more land.

Simon agree leave them to-morrow could maybe get some dust from places like in Hartwigs pictures, but the economics of doing something there does not stack up.

Wait for post harvest and if dry wham something in or whan something in next spring. But does not in any way stack up to stitch something in different.

I am sure the drainage experts here can do better than me but in most cases surely a ruddy great pipe flowing down hill with a good back cover of stone would do most of it.

Oh and for clarity not a power harrow fan. But like Jim prepared to be flexible as to establishment. Also it appears you drill in same direction every year.

Just query why not other way as rows from plants or planter or whatever can tend to funnel water in to those natural ponds, In the pictures one can almost see it. Yet you posted that depth control on the move was essential

Here is a foot long and deeper ploughed show the smearing please.