Metrichecking

[Ducati899]

Computer programmes and injecting whole herds....I thought I was quite modern but think I'm stuck in the 80's still [emoji23]

 

[In the pit]

You guys don't seem to understand the scientific method. The published papers have much more weight as they are run with control groups under the same management. I can make up a nice screenshot of some lovely data, but its pretty meaningless.

Whether you want to believe him or not @Clay52 's claims are backed up by quite a lot of published evidence.

Quite happy to debate the cost, practicability, palatability of this but better in another thread.

Research papers are all well and good to a degree but the"control groups" tend to be small and everything is done like an experiment.how can this compare to what's happening on farm

 

[More to life]

Research papers are all well and good to a degree but the"control groups" tend to be small and everything is done like an experiment.how can this compare to what's happening on farm

All sponsored research starts with a conclusion then is amended to reach it .

 

[jimmer]

What does it cost you in drugs this sync programme?

Not only do I not think syncing whole herds is unacceptable to the general public but if you're also still getting good standing heats without this and 60% conception rates then why do you bother? I just can't believe it's economically viable or worth it from a labour point of view if you're doing 5 injections.

we priced up doing a full ovsynch programme on our cows last year , each ml of product is just under £2 , 5ml of receptal and 2 ml of estrumate plus £1 in labour per animal comes in at approx £15 per head
with 2 jabs of 2ml estrumate to presynch them plus buggeration call it £25 per head
plus cost of insemination which on per head basis could be very dear , but doing a lot of cows in one day on a hourly basis works out very cheap

£25 quid per cow is what RMS would charge for coming out every day for a whole year and serving mainly to natural heats

 

[Clay52]

What does it cost you in drugs this sync programme?

Not only do I not think syncing whole herds is unacceptable to the general public but if you're also still getting good standing heats without this and 60% conception rates then why do you bother? I just can't believe it's economically viable or worth it from a labour point of view if you're doing 5 injections.

It's simple, 100% of cows eligible submitted day 1. 60% of cows pregnant on day 1 of breeding. No one gets 100% submission in the first 3 weeks of natural heats. So I'm doing better in 1 day of breeding vs 3 weeks of natural heats. It basically squeezes an extra week of breeding in on day 1.

We need to educate public. A big part of the public think grain is poisonous to cows. If you want to do away with sync simply due to the public with zero education on farming then get ready to be forage only. I've also heard people say AI is rape and we need to go back to bull breeding. Since this is a thread on metrickeching. The public won't like that either.

Lets work with things that have a proper reason for their restriction e.g. Antibotic resistance rather than fall over to public pressure due to some misinformation they read on Facebook from an animals rights extremist.

 

[Clay52]

Computer programmes and injecting whole herds....I thought I was quite modern but think I'm stuck in the 80's still [emoji23]

You don't vaccinate your whole herd. That's injecting the whole herd.

 

[Cows 'n grass]

It's simple, 100% of cows eligible submitted day 1. 60% of cows pregnant on day 1 of breeding. No one gets 100% submission in the first 3 weeks of natural heats. So I'm doing better in 1 day of breeding vs 3 weeks of natural heats. It basically squeezes an extra week of breeding in on day 1.

We need to educate public. A big part of the public think grain is poisonous to cows. If you want to do away with sync simply due to the public with zero education on farming then get ready to be forage only. I've also heard people say AI is rape and we need to go back to bull breeding. Since this is a thread on metrickeching. The public won't like that either.

Lets work with things that have a proper reason for their restriction e.g. Antibotic resistance rather than fall over to public pressure due to some misinformation they read on Facebook from an animals rights extremist.

We are not going to agree on this. I personally have no issue with synch programmes but the general public would, however much you try to educate them.

It's just the type of thing that higher end supermarket contracts like Waitrose and M&S will ban first to give them an edge then others will follow.

Also with a similar number of cows to you (520), if 60% held on day 1 that's still going to give me 50+ calves a day at peak. I can cope with 15-20 but fek 50-60.

 

[In the pit]

I don't sync anything but I get better than 60% conception rates. At £25 per cow it would cost £12500 to gain nothing from @Clay52 has got 60% conception on natural heats why is he spending all that money for a bloke who says"it's all about profit"

 

[Clay52]

I don't sync anything but I get better than 60% conception rates. At £25 per cow it would cost £12500 to gain nothing from @Clay52 has got 60% conception on natural heats why is he spending all that money for a bloke who says"it's all about profit"

You don't seem to understand the programs if you believe you gain nothing.

3 weeks of breeding in natural heats you might get 95% submission at 60% if you are doing very well.

Sync the cows, day 1 I already beat 3 weeks natural heats.
It's a round of breeding in 1 day. I can squeeze equivalent to 6 weeks breeding into 3 weeks and a couple days. Or 9 weeks natural heats into 6 weeks and a couple days.

 

[Clay52]

We are not going to agree on this. I personally have no issue with synch programmes but the general public would, however much you try to educate them.

It's just the type of thing that higher end supermarket contracts like Waitrose and M&S will ban first to give them an edge then others will follow.

Also with a similar number of cows to you (520), if 60% held on day 1 that's still going to give me 50+ calves a day at peak. I can cope with 15-20 but fek 50-60.

Like I said if you farm by what the Facebook educated general public wants, sync programs are the least of your worries.

Dealing with calves is just about management. I like it, busy for a short period of time then it's over.

In any case I'm not encouraging anyone to sync cows. I'm just defining that they work to people here questioning them who seem to have zero knowledge about sync programs.

 

[Clay52]

Now that the debate has moved from are the figures imaginary to profit talk.

I'm not saying it is profitiable or suitable for every farm or even anyone. That depends on the farm and up to individuals to work out for themselves.

But on the topic on gaining nothing.

Let's just compare 3 weeks breeding to 1 day sync.
The almost perfect natural heat herd
60% conception and 100 percent submission

On average those 60% pregnant cows take around 10 days to be pregnant after mating start date. (Half of 3 weeks)

Sync
60% pregnant cows are pregnant on day 1 of breeding.

Average roughly 10 days earlier conception.

Most research shows around £2 cost for every day open. So £20 benifit vs the natural heat herd.

Now if the injections cost more than 20 then you have lost money but you also have to take into account 100% submission isn't realistic on natural heats and the likelihood of better conception on sync. I also get the drugs for around half the price. Also have to remember the benifits of more cows calving earlier and the benifit for next years breeding. Extra labor required to find natural heats.

Like I said. I'm not saying sync is profitable for anyone that's for them to decide but there are clear gains but yes it's not free to do.

 

[In the pit]

That's you helping???

I'm pointing out that those results are not unbelievable or extraordinary.

Last 1100 breedings on my computer say 50% conception. That's including sexed semen usage. I had a dud sexed bull with 0% conception that hurt me.

You keep saying 60% conception rate but look at your post "1100 breeding on my computer say 50% conception" which for 100% submission isn't very good especially the cost of such schemes

 

[In the pit]

Just gone through research papers which says 100% submission rate but they all say 10% of cows will not be in sync(not bulling) because the sync doesn't work. So at 90 submission and 50% conception figures are looking worse by the second

 

[bovine]

98% in one of the protocol groups ovulated

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23122207

Submission rate is 100% because you serve all cows that undergo synch.

Pregnancy rate will depend on the background of the herd. It is affected by genetics, production, nutrition, management, type of service, disease, breed etc etc. The evidence supports pre-synch getting higher conception rates than conventional services, although many are American studies and use a single Ov-synch as the control (so compare a single with a double synch).

 

[Clay52]

You keep saying 60% conception rate but look at your post "1100 breeding on my computer say 50% conception" which for 100% submission isn't very good especially the cost of such schemes

So you are still trying to debate the figures. Haha. Before you do that at least understand them.

The 1100 breedings is for all breedings not just sync breedings. When you do a sync program you still breed the natural heat returns.

I don't know about you but later in the spring breeding season we get a decent drop off in natural heat conception. It's hotter and you are now down to breeding all the poor fertility animals.

Even though you got it wrong 50% conception for 100% submission is good, most would be very happy with that but that's not even what my figures said.

I already stated I used a fair bit of sexed semen in that. With one dud bull getting 0%.

 

[Clay52]

Just gone through research papers which says 100% submission rate but they all say 10% of cows will not be in sync(not bulling) because the sync doesn't work. So at 90 submission and 50% conception figures are looking worse by the second

Nope. I suggest not arguing about sync programs until you actually understand them.

wether a cow is bulling or not you still AI them on a sync program. It is 100% submission, That is not debatable, this is just your misunderstanding of how they work.

Bulling isn't required for sync program to work. They sync the ovulation not the heat.

Now not 100% cows sync properly but they are all still submitted for AI because so few do not sync up. It is still 100% submission. The 60% conception includes those that have not synced up properly.

Sync 100 cows. Breed 100 cows day 1 regardless of showing heats. 60 Pregnant.

Like bovine said you need a high base ferility level to get 60% to sync. But I know other people doing it and I know of 13,000lt housed herds getting 50%.

 

[Clay52]

98% in one of the protocol groups ovulated

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23122207

Submission rate is 100% because you serve all cows that undergo synch.

Pregnancy rate will depend on the background of the herd. It is affected by genetics, production, nutrition, management, type of service, disease, breed etc etc. The evidence supports pre-synch getting higher conception rates than conventional services, although many are American studies and use a single Ov-synch as the control (so compare a single with a double synch).

when you look into how sync programs work you start to understand how they can achieve high conception rates.

Double ovsync uses the pre ovsync to start the breeding ovsync at 5-8 days of the cycle which has shown to getting better conception rates.

With double ovsync you end up with accessory CLs in most cows which boost progesterone rates. Works a bit like having a Cidr in the cow without actually having to put one in there.

At the breeding end of the program everything is timed down to the hour. Cows are bred at the optimal time. High 90% are ovulating and are bred at the correct time.

Compare to natural heat. They are bred from 0-30 hours after onset of standing heat if they are even on heat at all.

 

[jimmer]

We presynch ovsynch and served 31 milking heifers 35 days ago
pd'd today
31 served 100% submission rate
7 returned
4 not pregnant
20 in calf 62% conception rate

 

[Cows 'n grass]

Was that normal or sexed semen?

 

[jimmer]

conventional