MF148 hydraulics...

[24/7 farming]

Might need to change the fert spinner in the near future, most options now seem to be hydraulic opening so might need to upgrade the mighty 148!
Tractor currently only has tipping when put into constant pumping on the lift lever.
A quick Google has brought up two options below, can anyone explain the difference between them!?, significant price difference but not sure what I actually need to get me even just a single acting spool to run a spinner...

 

[JVM]

If it has a banjo fitting on the pto lever plate, you can tap into the auxilliary pump.

 

[aidan]

does it have multipower

 

[24/7 farming]

No multi or banjo on the pto plate. Don't need lift control when using hyd or anything as spinner will just sit at required height just need a setup to open the spout!

 

[daveydiesel1]

Presumably if your putting it on a 148 its a small spreader, im pretty sure fleming make them with manual opening

 

[Sausage]

If it doesn’t have an aux pump the only way is to use a diverter valve, which bolts on the top of the transmission just in front of the seat. When you use the valve to provide oil to the spool, pressure support to the linkage is lost and it starts dropping as if you turned the engine off.

You are therefor left with 2 options; 1 spend a lot of money on a aux pump, if this can even be achieved, or 2 buy a spreader with manual on/off.

Assuming you are after a wagtail, even if you buy a hydraulic on/off these can easily be converted to manual. At least you’d then have the ram, should you want to upgrade tractor in the future. I will admit I personally have never heard of manual on/off spinners.

 

[daveydiesel1]

If it doesn’t have an aux pump the only way is to use a diverter valve, which bolts on the top of the transmission just in front of the seat. When you use the valve to provide oil to the spool, pressure support to the linkage is lost and it starts dropping as if you turned the engine off.

You are therefor left with 2 options; 1 spend a lot of money on a aux pump, if this can even be achieved, or 2 buy a spreader with manual on/off.

Assuming you are after a wagtail, even if you buy a hydraulic on/off these can easily be converted to manual. At least you’d then have the ram, should you want to upgrade tractor in the future. I will admit I personally have never heard of manual on/off spinners.

Thats tgey way they used to be with tractors that u could reach the implement out the back

 

[Sausage]

I know, our fert outfit was a 565 with manual on/off until not that long ago.

 

[Cowabunga]

The problem with tractors that do not have the auxiliary pump fitted is that the selector valve will isolate the links and allow a double acting valve to be used… but… the links will lower themselves through lift ram fluid leakage quite quickly. Also with at least one of the outlets on a genuine selector valve, the links will rise if the external circuit is overpressure such as when your fertiliser spreader ram reached end of stroke.

The only way to get around this is to have solid stabiliser bars from the long pin to the lower link pins on both sides at the appropriate length that holds the spreader at the correct height.

Tractors with auxilliary pumps, such as the standard build of the 148 MultiPower, is in a different league as far as hydraulic versatility goes. The linkage pump can just control link position while the auxiliary pump works the spool valve independently. The contrast between the basic and ones with auxiliary pump was and is rather startling, especially in this day and age. The dual pump version would still be considered state of the art today while the basic system is now quite unacceptable except for use with a slurry scraper tractor.

 

[Celtic Driver]

The problem with tractors that do not have the auxiliary pump fitted is that the selector valve will isolate the links and allow a double acting valve to be used… but… the links will lower themselves through lift ram fluid leakage quite quickly. Also with at least one of the outlets on a genuine selector valve, the links will rise if the external circuit is overpressure such as when your fertiliser spreader ram reached end of stroke.

The only way to get around this is to have solid stabiliser bars from the long pin to the lower link pins on both sides at the appropriate length that holds the spreader at the correct height.

Tractors with auxilliary pumps, such as the standard build of the 148 MultiPower, is in a different league as far as hydraulic versatility goes. The linkage pump can just control link position while the auxiliary pump works the spool valve independently. The contrast between the basic and ones with auxiliary pump was and is rather startling, especially in this day and age. The dual pump version would still be considered state of the art today while the basic system is now quite unacceptable except for use with a slurry scraper tractor.

Why does the lift ram leak on the 100 series any wy to stop it .

 

[Cowabunga]

Why does the lift ram leak on the 100 series any wy to stop it .

It is, I believe possible to simply change the lift ram for one from a 200 or 300 series tractor. These do not leak and drop the links anything like as quickly if at all.

If you have ever seen the lift ram casting, it looks ‘cheap’ and rough on the outside, but the issue is with the piston rings that let oil past. They were designed in an era where implements were less sophisticated with mostly single acting rams and the weigh carried on the links, far less than today. Even in their day though, the basic 100 series hydraulics were great at draft and position control but lacked the versatility to control implements efficiently. Which is why MF had the option of the hi-line tractors with the 8 ending rather than the 5. 148 instead of 135. 168 and 188. These in standard form would be multi power, with independent PTO and auxiliary hydraulics, although they could be ordered de-equiped with an eight speed gearbox and dry dual clutch mechanical PTO and no auxiliary hydraulics and various combinations of these things.

 

[Sausage]

I can guarantee you that 300 series arms drop. I wouldn’t try putting seals from this series in expecting a drastic improvement as I think you will be disappointed.

 

[Cowabunga]

I can guarantee you that 300 series arms drop. I wouldn’t try putting seals from this series in expecting a drastic improvement as I think you will be disappointed.

They get old. It’s a poor design in this respect. The 100 series basic hydraulics, even in later series, is just not good enough for what is needed here.

 

[aidan]

I can guarantee you that 300 series arms drop. I wouldn’t try putting seals from this series in expecting a drastic improvement as I think you will be disappointed.

do they drop when locked out with the 3 way valve

 

[aidan]

have a read here https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/mf-100-series-hydraulic-pump.402683/

cant tell you how the 168 performs with its new piston rings in the lift cylinder, its been too wet to get into a field with the fert spreader.

 

[Cowabunga]

do they drop when locked out with the 3 way valve

The 200 and 300 much less so than 100 and 500 series. But yes, oil will leak past the ram’s seals and the links will eventually drop, some faster than others and the more weight on the links the faster they will drop. The traditional workaround was to use rigid ’stays' between the lower link pins and the long pin with the hinge in the middle. Not a practical solution for a fertiliser spreader but OK for a 45 gallon drum converted into a loader tractor counterweight, as was once common. The other option on earlier Ferguson flat and sliding, adjustable by spanner top links, was to fit two plates either side of the top link bar which had racks of teeth protruding upwards onto which a chain was attached from the implement to a loop that engaged with the teeth. Move the loop forward on the rack to limit the links to a higher position.

Face it, these basic 1950’s to late 1970’s Ferguson System tractors are just not up to anything but very basic external hydraulic work. The 100 series pump only outputs 3.1 gallons a minute at peak, which isn’t even enough to turn a bale wrapper adequately fast. Plus they are always in some way interacting with the links, even when a diverter/selector valve is fitted [the links drop unless held up or lift when a relief valve is overpressured].

The excuse is that this system was designed and first manufactured in the 1950’s and is now nearly a 75 year old design. It was updated for more sophisticated use, at extra cost, in the mid 1960’s but only a minority of purchasers needed or ordered the tractors with auxiliary pumps and spool valves at that time, which would have improved the basic standard setup into the most sophisticated and versatile hydraulic system available then and even competitive to this day in both flow, pressure and combining flow from the two pumps or not.

Linkage stays. Many farmers made their own stronger ones for use with counterweights or indeed the linkage drawbar, as seen. It is essential to use stays with the linkage drawbar to prevent it from raising in work which might cause an accident or damage to, for instance, a PTO shaft.

 

[aidan]

The 200 and 300 much less so than 100 and 500 series. But yes, oil will leak past the ram’s seals and the links will eventually drop, some faster than others and the more weight on the links the faster they will drop. The traditional workaround was to use rigid ’stays' between the lower link pins and the long pin with the hinge in the middle. Not a practical solution for a fertiliser spreader but OK for a 45 gallon drum converted into a loader tractor counterweight, as was once common. The other option on earlier Ferguson flat and sliding, adjustable by spanner top links, was to fit two plates either side of the top link bar which had racks of teeth protruding upwards onto which a chain was attached from the implement to a loop that engaged with the teeth. Move the loop forward on the rack to limit the links to a higher position.

Face it, these basic 1950’s to late 1970’s Ferguson System tractors are just not up to anything but very basic external hydraulic work. The 100 series pump only outputs 3.1 gallons a minute at peak, which isn’t even enough to turn a bale wrapper adequately fast. Plus they are always in some way interacting with the links, even when a diverter/selector valve is fitted [the links drop unless held up or lift when a relief valve is overpressured].

The excuse is that this system was designed and first manufactured in the 1950’s and is now nearly a 75 year old design. It was updated for more sophisticated use, at extra cost, in the mid 1960’s but only a minority of purchasers needed or ordered the tractors with auxiliary pumps and spool valves at that time, which would have improved the basic standard setup into the most sophisticated and versatile hydraulic system available then and even competitive to this day in both flow, pressure and combining flow from the two pumps or not.

Linkage stays. Many farmers made their own stronger ones for use with counterweights or indeed the linkage drawbar, as seen. It is essential to use stays with the linkage drawbar to prevent it from raising in work which might cause an accident or damage to, for instance, a PTO shaft.

I agree with your post

eventually drop is fine by me, if they stay up for 10mins i will be satisfied. With the way i have it rigged up I have constant pump engagged and I can pulse spool valve 1 and the lift will lift up. Spool Valve 2 opens and closes fert spreader.

If it drys up a bit I will have a chance to find out for real.

 

[Cowabunga]

I agree with your post

eventually drop is fine by me, if they stay up for 10mins i will be satisfied. With the way i have it rigged up I have constant pump engagged and I can pulse spool valve 1 and the lift will lift up. Spool Valve 2 opens and closes fert spreader.

If it drys up a bit I will have a chance to find out for real.

People have managed to work around it over the years but most have upgraded their tractor so they have at least one with a more versatile system and to handle larger implements. Remember that accurate even fertiliser spreading depends, among other calibrations, of accurate and consistent height [Position] control of the spreading mechanism above the crop. Not only does the height change [when it changes] but the inclination of the spreading mechanism, be it spout or disc, also changes, making rather dramatic and eventually ‘artistic’ spread pattern differences.

Every other farmer like to snigger at his neighbour’s stripy fields but it gets more serious than that these days with quality and environmental standards and similar bull.

 

[Celtic Driver]

People have managed to work around it over the years but most have upgraded their tractor so they have at least one with a more versatile system and to handle larger implements. Remember that accurate even fertiliser spreading depends, among other calibrations, of accurate and consistent height [Position] control of the spreading mechanism above the crop. Not only does the height change [when it changes] but the inclination of the spreading mechanism, be it spout or disc, also changes, making rather dramatic and eventually ‘artistic’ spread pattern differences.

Every other farmer like to snigger at his neighbour’s stripy fields but it gets more serious than that these days with quality and environmental standards and similar bull.

The 75 year old Ferguson system still in use on new tractors in India Pakistan Iran not bad for its age and many with just the basic linkage pump .

 

[Cowabunga]

The 75 year old Ferguson system still in use on new tractors in India Pakistan Iran not bad for its age and many with just the basic linkage pump .

Yes they are. Very basic and suits basic tasks and light unsophisticated implements just fine, as they always have. Most probably use the uprated 5.8 gpm scotch yolk pump now I imagine, as fitted to the Coventry 200 series, so they have at least enough flow to turn a bale wrapper.