Mob Breeding

[JohnGalway]

Came across a new to me term reading Richard Perkins' Regenerative Agriculture, "mob breeding".

I need to read and reread the chapter to describe it.

I was wondering if anyone here was already familiar with the practice?

 

[spin cycle]

if it means your sheep just run around getting pregnant and lambing all year round then ...yes ....in fact i'm ahead of the game

 

[Woolless]

I think I'm right to say it simply means running everything together at bulling time. In other words, last year's bull calves would be running alongside the stock bulls in with all the cows/heifers. I vaguely remember reading or watching a video about it some time ago. I believe cattle run on this system become highly seasonal breeders and there's almost a rut for three or four weeks. The reasoning was that wild herds don't get inbred.

Might be good for the soil but my inner livestock nerd is panicking at the thought of all that uncontrolled breeding!

 

[Samcowman]

Might be good for the soil but my inner livestock nerd is panicking at the thought of all that uncontrolled breeding!

? made my heart beat faster in panic at the thought of my breeding program in that system.

 

[Hilly]

When I was a lad we had flocks and herds , mobs were gangs of naughty people, i still have a flock and a herd .

 

[Gulli]

I think I'm right to say it simply means running everything together at bulling time. In other words, last year's bull calves would be running alongside the stock bulls in with all the cows/heifers. I vaguely remember reading or watching a video about it some time ago. I believe cattle run on this system become highly seasonal breeders and there's almost a rut for three or four weeks. The reasoning was that wild herds don't get inbred.

Might be good for the soil but my inner livestock nerd is panicking at the thought of all that uncontrolled breeding!

The problem is that wild herds do get inbred but the bad genes die out, which doesn't tend to happen on farm as we tend to try and keep stuff alive

 

[Fenwick]

Thé idéal is interesting. But doesn't R Perkins have liké 4 cows and perhaps 4 / 5 years expérience with them? Is there someone else doing this who would bé in a better position to advise? What about Chillingham Park? Sutely someone there knows more.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Guessing Greg Judy would work on some sort of system like this.
Does @The Ruminant have any experience with it?

 

[hendrebc]

Will only really work with big mobs of 500 females or more. I read somewhere that a wild population of 1000 head of something will never become extinct due to inbreeding as there is enough genetic diversity in that mob of whatever. So 500 females, and there would naturally he 500 males too, but of course being farmers we would take out the males we don't like and only use the best ones. But you'd need to use a lot of the males as breeders not just a few or you lose that natural diversity of the genes if you use one male too heavily. Put of 500 males chasing 500 female animals they would rut and fight and the strongest most aggressive males would get to breed most but a good portion of the poorer ones would have a good sneaky go as well.
I sometimes speak to a man from Sweden on FB and he runs a completely closed flock of 600 Gotland ewes. He hasn't bought any rams in over 20 years I think he said and all he does is choose his favourite 20-30 ram lambs that have fit into his strict selection criteria and uses them all on the flock in one big mob then culls them all after breeding. By using so many ram lambs it means one lamb can't put too much of his genes forward and keeps that genetic diversity going.
Seems to be working well for him anyway.

 

[The Ruminant]

Guessing Greg Judy would work on some sort of system like this.
Does @The Ruminant have any experience with it?

Greg was doing it this way when I visited him back in 2011 (gulp!) He ran all his yearlings, 2-yr-old and older bulls as one big mob. At breeding time he turned the whole lot in with his mob-grazed cows and, as others have said, the strongest and fittest got the most cows.

I’m not sure I’m a big fan of this method, preferring @hendrebc’s example of choosing the best.

I was listening to a Gabe Brown interview the other day and have read some stuff about Kit Pharo’s ranch. They both select bulls from their oldest cows. Because they cull any empty cows, this means that the older cows are the ones that have survived under their particular range conditions and have bred back every year without fail. Hence they are genetically the most fertile cows in their herds under their own conditions.

 

[hendrebc]

Greg was doing it this way when I visited him back in 2011 (gulp!) He ran all his yearlings, 2-yr-old and older bulls as one big mob. At breeding time he turned the whole lot in with his mob-grazed cows and, as others have said, the strongest and fittest got the most cows.

I’m not sure I’m a big fan of this method, preferring @hendrebc’s example of choosing the best.

I was listening to a Gabe Brown interview the other day and have read some stuff about Kit Pharo’s ranch. They both select bulls from their oldest cows. Because they cull any empty cows, this means that the older cows are the ones that have survived under their particular range conditions and have bred back every year without fail. Hence they are genetically the most fertile cows in their herds under their own conditions.

One of the selection criteria for my FB friend was a twin born and reared from the older ewes. His ewes were lasting over 10 years and staying productive which is damned impressive.

 

[tr250]

Bloke up the road from us had feral cattle trouble was they all ended up being bulls heifers got in calf so young most died calving

 

[Woolless]

Bloke up the road from us had feral cattle trouble was they all ended up being bulls heifers got in calf so young most died calving

I think the feral herd on one of the Orkney Islands (Swona?) has the same trouble. @hendrebc's Swedish mate's system sounds like it might be a goer.

 

[hendrebc]

I think the feral herd on one of the Orkney Islands (Swona?) has the same trouble. @hendrebc's Swedish mate's system sounds like it might be a goer.

If I wasn't arseing about with pedigree lleyns I think I'd already be doing it. But it would mean registering 30odd ram lambs every year and that sounds like a ballache. Might ditch the pedigree and do it anyway it's not like I sell any pedigree rams or anything.

 

[glensman]

If I wasn't arseing about with pedigree lleyns I think I'd already be doing it. But it would mean registering 30odd ram lambs every year and that sounds like a ballache. Might ditch the pedigree and do it anyway it's not like I sell any pedigree rams or anything.

I have a feeling that things might swing in the direction of pure bred rather than "pedigree" over the next ten years or so.

 

[glensman]

If I wasn't arseing about with pedigree lleyns I think I'd already be doing it. But it would mean registering 30odd ram lambs every year and that sounds like a ballache. Might ditch the pedigree and do it anyway it's not like I sell any pedigree rams or anything.

I have a feeling that things might swing in the direction of pure bred rather than "pedigree" over the next ten years or so.

 

[Blaithin]

Bloke up the road from us had feral cattle trouble was they all ended up being bulls heifers got in calf so young most died calving

It’ll be a con of the increased fertility and plain of nutrition modern breeds are on.

Many heifer calves start cycling as young as 6 months, some breeds, like Jersey, are known to be closer to 4. Where in the wild would you find a large mammal that is capable of breeding at 4-6 months?! Even cats struggle to meet that at times.

I’ll admit that there are moments I feel I must be failing somewhere nutritionally because my heifer calves rarely show a cycle before they’re a year old. In reality it’s keeping them safe and means their bodies are developing properly. They aren’t being creep fed to the point the starches speed up puberty for them and growth is directed to other aspects. I mean.... why do I want them cycling at 6 months anyway? I don’t want to breed them until 14-15 months so why is that a goal? What is it really a symbol of? I know of no studies that show a heifer cycling closer to 12 months means she’ll be less fertile than one who starts at 6 months. It could actually be a reverse indicator of longevity. I’m assuming cows are like humans, they’re born with a set number of eggs. If they start ovulating and using eggs as early as 4-6 months then they’re actually taking withdrawals from the bank months before necessary as a complete waste. A late cycling heifer could translate as a longer fertile heifer - to a point where her eggs become old and less viable anyway.

If a producer has a herd that they’ve worked on and know their heifers consistently don’t start cycling until 12+ months then mob breeding would be something of an option. Otherwise I wouldn't want to try it. It’s one of the flaws of rewilding cattle. If they’re bred young and you don’t even preg check them, how can you know to nutritionally support them and watch them closely for calving complications? You could potentially lose a large portion of your herd in the first couple years as replacements fail to survive.

 

[Blaithin]

I’ve jinxed myself. First heifer is cycling today. She’ll be a year tomorrow.

Bull calf got her. He’s 10 months.

Mob breeding in action. ?

 

[Crane]

From what I uderstood of the interview , he never talked about breeding 10 month heifers.He spoke about using new selected bulls from the own herd , in big numbers , about 20% of 15 month old.That way you have an easy human selection(animals coming from 3 consecutive calving cows) and natural selection makes the rest.Every year you change bulls of the next generation so there is a fast genetic turnover.This makes possible a very short calving season. Weaning and rearing new animals apart is not contradicted with this mob breeding aproach.

 

[Ribble]