mob stocking

Homesy

Member
Location
North West Devon
Has anyone tried to make a plate meter? I have an idea to start measuring grass with the aim shifting cattle out at 1500kg DM to allow optimum regrowth, and also get a handle on grass growth to budget feeding. I don't want to splash £500 on a bit of plastic which I probably won't use once I've got my eye in. I'm looking at the AHDB measuring guide with clip board on top of the sward, and thinking I could use that to calibrate a bucket lid on a plastic rod. Do the bucket lid need a weight on?
This leaflet might help.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
The one consistent "rule" I've heard from many subtly different regimes is don't take it shorter than 4" (10cm). At this time of year I'm wishing they would grow quicker - by the time I put the cattle into the first plot they will all go wild and I'll be spending days strimming under the electric wires to stop them earthing out on the vegetation!
I had to get out in the ute and roll down the grass to get the new hoggets trained to the electric fence (they'd never seen one when they arrived) but we're slowly losing strands. Makes it a heap easier once everything learns to trust the system.
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Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
The most interesting part of this will be how people adapt their herbage species over time. If you stick with natural or indigenous species that are what want to grow there, which will be the most desirable and suit the system best. Interesting stuff.
Yes, it most certainly is.
We are brought up with the notion that the most resilient and adaptable forage species are the weeds, and what we grow in their place is to be nurtured at any expense.
But the thing is, it does get expensive, or it can; if we keep everything from reproducing then we have to take on that expense.
Otherwise, you could choose "life", and have free fertiliser and reseeds for the rest of your career.

To do this we really need to abandon "the prescription", eg look how well that's worked for blackgrass control in cereal crops..
The mindset is wrong. The weeds are necessary because there is no continuity of living roots to feed the soil, and little groundcover or nutrient cycling.

You can't solve the problem with the same thinking that caused the problem.
Maybe the crop is the problem?
 

ChrisStep

Member
BASE UK Member

Thanks for the link - a good management guide.

I can see two competing ideologies emerging -
rotational grazing to maximise grass output and quality v
mob grazing to maximise biomass production and soil return.

Is that a fair summary?
I'm in it for the soil. If I'm mob grazing for this reason is it costing me grazing output over a rotational 3000 in 1500 out type system?
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Thanks for the link - a good management guide.

I can see two competing ideologies emerging -
rotational grazing to maximise grass output and quality v
mob grazing to maximise biomass production and soil return.

Is that a fair summary?
I'm in it for the soil. If I'm mob grazing for this reason is it costing me grazing output over a rotational 3000 in 1500 out type system?
Personally I believe mob grazing will produce more grass than rotational. Especially in a dry year, but other years too.
Grass quality may suffer in the short term, particulsrly later in the season, but from what I've seen elsewhere, this will improve in time, as species become more diverse and suited to the system.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Thanks for the link - a good management guide.

I can see two competing ideologies emerging -
rotational grazing to maximise grass output and quality v
mob grazing to maximise biomass production and soil return.

Is that a fair summary?
I'm in it for the soil. If I'm mob grazing for this reason is it costing me grazing output over a rotational 3000 in 1500 out type system?
Sort of correct - rotational grazing is basically flawed, it doesn't really achieve a hell of a lot except look nice.
Mob grazing is more based on holistic management, so it can be very regenerative by way of enhancing the water, mineral, energy cycles. It's usually a much more effective use of land resources because it doesn't break down.

Rotational grazing is more for fundamentalists, the type who are in love with their stock, are scared of tall grass in case their neighbours begin circling, and have had 2.2 droughts by the middle of summer due to lack of groundcover.
 

ChrisStep

Member
BASE UK Member
As to species, I'm sowing grass seed on land in an arable rotation, with a plan of getting 5 years out of it. I'm going into a 4th year of perennial ryegrass (and still struggle to spell it), I tried a propriatrary herbal ley, which went in for last year (perennials, timothy, red clover, plantain, chicory; and have planted a ryegrass red clover mix to graze this spring. The straight ryegrass is pretty poor in a dry year (this is it's second one), but tremendous with rain and plenty of bagged fertiliser last year. The herbal ley was fantastic last year, and looking ok now, but has very few herbs left.

Am I right thinking most of you guys are in long term grass, and letting the stock manage the species mix? If you were establishing a ley for mob grazing, what would you put in in?
 

Samcowman

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cornwall
As to species, I'm sowing grass seed on land in an arable rotation, with a plan of getting 5 years out of it. I'm going into a 4th year of perennial ryegrass (and still struggle to spell it), I tried a propriatrary herbal ley, which went in for last year (perennials, timothy, red clover, plantain, chicory; and have planted a ryegrass red clover mix to graze this spring. The straight ryegrass is pretty poor in a dry year (this is it's second one), but tremendous with rain and plenty of bagged fertiliser last year. The herbal ley was fantastic last year, and looking ok now, but has very few herbs left.

Am I right thinking most of you guys are in long term grass, and letting the stock manage the species mix? If you were establishing a ley for mob grazing, what would you put in in?
That’s the trouble with ryegrass monoculture, it needs a lot of fert.
How did you manage the herbal ley last year? I have used a bit of chicory in an overseed but it didn’t take that well but it is particularly susceptible to being overgrazed and needs longer recovery’s
 

ChrisStep

Member
BASE UK Member
Didn't get it grazed until after it flowered, and then grazed twice more last season. I suspect I overdid the nitrogen this spring. There's still a little chicory left, but I've lost most of the plantain and red clover.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I've heard that top tip before, but thank you. How long does the sward stay down for?
Usually long enough to get the mob through, maybe a week?
What I don't like is having electrical current going down into the soil because that's "autumn", rather the plant/soil's own electrical current should be going upward ... "spring".

Sorry if that sounds a bit too biodynamic but it's true, the Earth is a big dynamo and this affects growth patterns and plant habits far more than soil indices ever can.
Measure a poplar tree by putting the probes into the trunk and by the roots and there will always be current- upwards in spring and downwards in the fall.
Thus growth patterns are completely different near the equator to down here, even if you took a potplant on an aeroplane ride.

A blade touching a low hotwire at a few kV will actually reduce the grass growth adjacent to the fence for a few weeks, hence we shift in the afternoon and then put the 'boom' on after an hour or two when they've grazed it away from the wires.

Again, that's a behavioural thing as most sheep would simply take a run at a dead fence, in a way their behaviour is an indication of if we're regenerative or degenerative today.
Regen ag is a behaviour, and that's the part people miss.
 

ImLost

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Not sure
I have just read through this entire thread!! o_O:coffee: Some brilliant info here, thanks all who have posted so far!

One question which keeps coming to mind, from what I have seen people are either grazing cows or sheep, can the two be done together?
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
One question which keeps coming to mind, from what I have seen people are either grazing cows or sheep, can the two be done together?

Yes is the short answer.
I have tried it, reasonably successfully, though with various bits of grass keep many of the sheep tend to go to off lying odd bits and it's easier managing cows on their own.
Kiwi Pete does it at times I believe.
As does Greg Judy on YouTube.

Its known as a "flerd"?
 

ChrisStep

Member
BASE UK Member
Well that drought seems to be over for now. Note to self - take account of ground conditions when timing moves...
 

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Samcowman

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cornwall
Had a paddock I did that to last time it rained here beginning of May. You wouldn’t know apart from the corner which was the worst. The mud soon washes off the leaves. Quite interesting though the grass in that paddock is now a lot darker green than it neighbours.
 

ChrisStep

Member
BASE UK Member
How long were they on that patch for before you moved them, @ChrisStep ? Also, is it a newish ley or permanent pasture?
About 6 hours with 75000kg of cattle. New seeds clover/prg on some of our "heavier" arable ground.
Should have been silaged, but never got the stones rolled in before it got wet last back end - and then went from too wet to concrete this spring in 3 days while I wasn't looking. I'll spin a bit of fresh seed on before we roll it, then mow it. Hopefully by the time we get back to grazing we'll benefit from the stem trampled in and have better rooting and more resilience.
 

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
About 6 hours with 75000kg of cattle. New seeds clover/prg on some of our "heavier" arable ground.
Should have been silaged, but never got the stones rolled in before it got wet last back end - and then went from too wet to concrete this spring in 3 days while I wasn't looking. I'll spin a bit of fresh seed on before we roll it, then mow it. Hopefully by the time we get back to grazing we'll benefit from the stem trampled in and have better rooting and more resilience.
How did you establish the new seeds? I’m interested because we had a car crash when we used to establish the conventional way - plough / cultivate / drill / Roll and re-roll repeatedly. When it turned wet there was no soil structure to hold the cattle Wight and it turned to mush like yours. Took years to recover too.

We now establish it by barely scratching the soil surface with a power harrow. Half an inch at most, if we can (this is into arable stubbles) then we use a conventional drill held up with coulters in the air and we blow the seed onto the surface of the land, then roll it well. This keeps most of the soil structure and means it weight-bearing is much improved.
 

ChrisStep

Member
BASE UK Member
Old MF spring tine cultivator 2 inches deep followed by power harrow combination with the coulters off the ground. I regret using the tine drag, as it sat like porridge through the wet winter. We were trying to level the field out a bit. I went straight into a stubble with the combination the year before, but it was softer ground. That time I still managed to shake the seed metering unit apart, opening it up and running out of seed. As with my arable establishment I find a 2 inch cultivation leaves a 2 inch pan with wet clarts on top. At least there's a bottom for the hoof to sink to, even if it churns up the top. Broadcast and roll, or spring tine drill next time. Or how about my Horsch CO scratching the top with the seed blowing out the back? 10 inch rows might not look pretty. Thoughts?
 

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