Moonboot on R2 no more livestock or farming!

Mark Hatton

Staff Member
Media
Location
Yorkshire
It won't be enough for Monbiot. I like some elements of rewilding especially where it's clear agriculture is massively marginal but it can only ever be a pastiche of what was.
I'd agree, we live on an island, which, politics aside, is over populated, we're on the precipice of, at worst WW3, at best, a global food crisis, now isn't the time to be taking land out of food production and re-wilding it, or am I being too simplistic?🤷‍♂️
 
I'd agree, we live on an island, which, politics aside, is over populated, we're on the precipice of, at worst WW3, at best, a global food crisis, now isn't the time to be taking land out of food production and re-wilding it, or am I being too simplistic?🤷‍♂️

There also another angle.

A conservative position is that animal agriculture evolved and dominated north western Europe because it suited the terrain and the climate. We could preserve our milk as cheese or butter, our livestock as mobile larders for at times we would have had crop failures etc. Animal agriculture evolved to give us resilience.

It doesn't mean it's perfect for all region's of the world but it does suit our region. It gives us resilience, unless Monbiot thinks Tolly's farm will feed everyone?
 

Mark Hatton

Staff Member
Media
Location
Yorkshire
There also another angle.

A conservative position is that animal agriculture evolved and dominated north western Europe because it suited the terrain and the climate. We could preserve our milk as cheese or butter, our livestock as mobile larders for at times we would have had crop failures etc. Animal agriculture evolved to give us resilience.

It doesn't mean it's perfect for all region's of the world but it does suit our region. It gives us resilience, unless Monbiot thinks Tolly's farm will feed everyone?
Tolly's farm is the chapter I'm about to start, so I'm a little intrigued to her more about it. One of the interesting assumptions made was around regional change to food production that could come if the extreme weather incidents continue, making many regions unable to grow food, pushing populations futher north towards more temperate climates, all a bit doom mongering and a lot of if's buts and maybe's. The only down side to your proposal is that George will have got rid of all the livestock farms....... Shame as one thing we're bloody good at is growing grass!!!
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
There also another angle.

A conservative position is that animal agriculture evolved and dominated north western Europe because it suited the terrain and the climate. We could preserve our milk as cheese or butter, our livestock as mobile larders for at times we would have had crop failures etc. Animal agriculture evolved to give us resilience.

It doesn't mean it's perfect for all region's of the world but it does suit our region. It gives us resilience, unless Monbiot thinks Tolly's farm will feed everyone?

It's also an incorrect opinion.

Animal agriculture evolved in the cradle of civilization, Mesopotamia.

Herder cultures exist across Europe, Asia and Africa.

Given sufficient time in sure they would have evolved in North America as well.
 
It's also an incorrect opinion.

Animal agriculture evolved in the cradle of civilization, Mesopotamia.

Herder cultures exist across Europe, Asia and Africa.

Given sufficient time in sure they would have evolved in North America as well.

But I was thinking India which was significantly not meat based. But milk is significant.

My point is more that a lot of animal agriculture can put a strain on some landscapes. I'm pro animal agriculture by the way but there is no point pretending it's all harmless.
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
But I was thinking India which was significantly not meat based. But milk is significant.

My point is more that a lot of animal agriculture can put a strain on some landscapes. I'm pro animal agriculture by the way but there is no point pretending it's all harmless.
I know you are.

Animal agriculture pre dates cropping.

Its the method of wether animal or cropping, its the method which causes landscape damage.
 

flowerpot

Member
In India and other tropical countries they can grow food all year round as there are no seasons. Also it is very hot, so I expect meat goes off very quickly. I remember there was a radio programme and the BBC reporter was shocked to the core when her host was going to cook a chicken. "But I thought you are vegetarian" "The chicken is an honorary vegetable today."

The original diet in various countries around the world obviously depends upon the local climate. North European countries have long winters when very little grows, so it would always have been necessary to preserve food for the winter months. In hotter climates with no frost vegetation grows all year round, given the right rainfall.

I expect that virtually all peoples in the past would have eaten animals - there is a lot of protein wandering around in one place and the skin/fat/tendons also come in useful. It would take a huge amount of time and labour to "gather" an equal amount of nutritious food.
 

DaveGrohl

Member
Location
Cumbria
Pretty sure animal eating has existed all over the world rather than just some places. How many crops do the Innuit grow and harvest after all? As pointed out already, they are a mobile long-term food storage unit. They don’t usually go off if they’re still alive. Freezers and the like make it easier for civilised countries to store all manner of food but not all people have access to technology like this.
 

Mark Hatton

Staff Member
Media
Location
Yorkshire
Right you lot, update on the next chapter, which as someone mentioned was about Iian Tollhurst, Fruit and vegetable grower.
Now, I know nothing about him other than whats been written by the author, his 7 ha of organic production on part of the Hardwick Estate near Reading. I'm sure he's an lovely chap and a very capable farmer, but how he produces food isn't going to feed the country when George gets rid of all the livestock farmers, based primarily on labour. Its a massively labour intensive method of farming, we've only seen this week acres of lettuces rotting in the field due to labour shortages, unsurprisingly there didn't seem to be any solution to remedy this issue.

I admire how they are producing food with very limited inputs, no pesticides and have very much integrated environmental strips between crops with different species of wild flowers, which in turn encourage lots of biodiversity, increased insect and wildlife.
What was really interesting was the use of the term 'Green Manure' almost as if there is a new magic product thats going fix all our nutrient needs, or to the rest of us, cover crops!

They've no doubt got a very sustainable life business supplying fruit and veg locally, I find it very odd choice of farm to feature in his book when there are many examples of farmers making a real go at regenerative farming on a commercial scale.
 
I'm about half way through his latest offering, to summarise, he hates farmers, especially livestock. He hates all corporates, too much money, he makes lots of assumptions and is wildly inaccurate with some of his ag knowledge, for example, apparently your all spreading fert at the wrong time of the year, he states you spread nitrogen in the autumn and winter as you aren't busy then and can't be bothered to spread it as the crop requires it! Thats why it all gets washed into the rivers.

Talks a lot about the rest of the world, little so far about how to fix anything other than getting rid of all livestock and the world going full plant diet, recons that by doing so it'll reduce the land required to grow food by 75% and we can re wild it all..... lots of numbers blah blah blah......I'll keep you informed.

I've written it before on TFF more times than I can count- pay no attention to the bloke. He has no idea about farming, nor the environment. He and Whine need to take a step into my trans-dimensional teleporter on a one way ticket never to return.
 
Right you lot, update on the next chapter, which as someone mentioned was about Iian Tollhurst, Fruit and vegetable grower.
Now, I know nothing about him other than whats been written by the author, his 7 ha of organic production on part of the Hardwick Estate near Reading. I'm sure he's an lovely chap and a very capable farmer, but how he produces food isn't going to feed the country when George gets rid of all the livestock farmers, based primarily on labour. Its a massively labour intensive method of farming, we've only seen this week acres of lettuces rotting in the field due to labour shortages, unsurprisingly there didn't seem to be any solution to remedy this issue.

I admire how they are producing food with very limited inputs, no pesticides and have very much integrated environmental strips between crops with different species of wild flowers, which in turn encourage lots of biodiversity, increased insect and wildlife.
What was really interesting was the use of the term 'Green Manure' almost as if there is a new magic product thats going fix all our nutrient needs, or to the rest of us, cover crops!

They've no doubt got a very sustainable life business supplying fruit and veg locally, I find it very odd choice of farm to feature in his book when there are many examples of farmers making a real go at regenerative farming on a commercial scale.

Yep.

Ian Tolhurst wrote a book called Growing Green which is interesting and has some good ideas. Worth a read.

But George has shot his bolt here I'm afraid and its nothing special
 
It's also an incorrect opinion.

Animal agriculture evolved in the cradle of civilization, Mesopotamia.

Herder cultures exist across Europe, Asia and Africa.

Given sufficient time in sure they would have evolved in North America as well.

Exactly- livestock farming actually replicated natural systems because the great herds of herbivores used to follow the rains. Humans just extended the process a bit and captured a lot more of the energy output for themselves.
 

Mark Hatton

Staff Member
Media
Location
Yorkshire
Yep.

Ian Tolhurst wrote a book called Growing Green which is interesting and has some good ideas. Worth a read.

But George has shot his bolt here I'm afraid and its nothing special
Thanks I'll have a look for that, He could have easily found other farms to visit that have successfully moved over to direct drilling and cover crops for example, lack of imagination on his part.
 
Thanks I'll have a look for that, He could have easily found other farms to visit that have successfully moved over to direct drilling and cover crops for example, lack of imagination on his part.

It doesn't fit what he wants to say. But the problem is no one wants to eat what George wants us to eat or do the work George wants other people do for him so he can be an organic stock free vegan or whatever
 

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Man fined £300 for bonfire-related waste offences

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Written by William Kellett from Agriland

court-640x360.jpg
A man has pleaded guilty at Newtownards Magistrates’ Court to waste offences relating to a bonfire next to the electrical sub-station on the Circular Road in Newtownards, Co. Down.

Gareth Gill (51) of Abbot’s Walk, Newtownards pleaded guilty to two charges under the Waste and Contaminated Land (Northern Ireland) Order 1997, for which he was fined £150 each and ordered to pay a £15 offender’s levy

On June 25, 2018, PSNI officers went to Gill’s yard, where they found a large amount of waste consisting of scrap wood, pallets, carpet and underlay.

Discussion with Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) officers confirmed the site...
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