Moving less soil...

[Wigeon]

It seems to me that I read everywhere of the desire to "move less soil" when it comes to establishment, though often this just means that the person in question has bought a lighter cultivator and is still basically moving all of the soil surface, but possibly at a reduced depth and certainly with newer paint. Alternatively they have bought a drill that is basically a subsoiler with a seed box that, whilst it doesn't actually till in between the rows, it basically does by heaping all of the soil from the slot onto the lands on either side.

Looking at this from a grass weed perspective on heavy land, surely when it comes to actually putting the seed in the ground, moving no soil is actually what we want to be doing, in an ideal world (surface germinating bromes notwithstanding).

I also think that generally the best way to get weeds to grow is to roll.

So, assuming we've got a field ready for planting, it has either got some weeds growing on it which we kill by glyphosate / crimping / flames / laser / drone death rays, or a cover crop which we treat in the same way, or indeed nothing growing on it, in which case we do nothing.

We then need to put some seeds in the ground with a machine that basically floats along, that miraculously manages to apply just the right amount of consolidation to the slot that it doesn't require rolling, but somehow knackers the slugs and stops the slot filling with water, is pulled by a tractor that does less compaction / consolidation in the wheelings than a set of cambridge rolls does.

Can such a solution exist?

10x Fordson dexta equivalents on 710 tyres each pulling a 2 row 750a / boss drill?

I know it's all about soil rather than machines, and this all assumes that the soil is in a fit state to start zero till, but it seems to me (at least based on some tine drill experiments) heavy land nirvana is yet to be reached, though I stand to be corrected. To me this all points towards a swarm robot future, but i'd like to try something now!

 

[hendrebc]

Quad bike with a spinner on the back and hope rains amd doesnt dry for a while. Ive planted rape turnips and italian ryegrass into cereal stubble like that lots of times. You could even tow a roller behind the quad if you wanted to roll and it was going to be dry for a while

 

[Farmer Roy]

It seems to me that I read everywhere of the desire to "move less soil" when it comes to establishment, though often this just means that the person in question has bought a lighter cultivator and is still basically moving all of the soil surface, but possibly at a reduced depth and certainly with newer paint. Alternatively they have bought a drill that is basically a subsoiler with a seed box that, whilst it doesn't actually till in between the rows, it basically does by heaping all of the soil from the slot onto the lands on either side.

Looking at this from a grass weed perspective on heavy land, surely when it comes to actually putting the seed in the ground, moving no soil is actually what we want to be doing, in an ideal world (surface germinating bromes notwithstanding).

I also think that generally the best way to get weeds to grow is to roll.

So, assuming we've got a field ready for planting, it has either got some weeds growing on it which we kill by glyphosate / crimping / flames / laser / drone death rays, or a cover crop which we treat in the same way, or indeed nothing growing on it, in which case we do nothing.

We then need to put some seeds in the ground with a machine that basically floats along, that miraculously manages to apply just the right amount of consolidation to the slot that it doesn't require rolling, but somehow knackers the slugs and stops the slot filling with water, is pulled by a tractor that does less compaction / consolidation in the wheelings than a set of cambridge rolls does.

Can such a solution exist?

10x Fordson dexta equivalents on 710 tyres each pulling a 2 row 750a / boss drill?

I know it's all about soil rather than machines, and this all assumes that the soil is in a fit state to start zero till, but it seems to me (at least based on some tine drill experiments) heavy land nirvana is yet to be reached, though I stand to be corrected. To me this all points towards a swarm robot future, but i'd like to try something now!

a LOT of zero till planting on a large broadacre scale here is done with disc planters for minimal disturbance. The more you disturb the soil, the greater the evaporation & moisture loss ( important in our environment ) & the more weeds germinate
Disc planters come in 2 basic types, a single near vertical disc running at a slight angle to open a furrow, which is then closed by a following closing wheel
Double disc planters have 2 discs next to each other, touching at the bottom in a V shape. These open a furrow for the seed, which is again closed by presswheels / closing wheels
Some of these machines can be such low disturbance it can at times be hard to see where they have been - thank God for auto steer is all I can say

as for compaction, wheel tracks, weight of machines - they could just as easily be mounted to a massive 24m machine, or a small "swarm" type drone, on a gantry type system, or wherever your imagination takes you

Pic showing amount of disturbance when planted with a double disc opener

Single disc planter

Planting into existing pasture


I also don't understand the UK principle of zero till. We might use a 250 - 300hp tractor on a 12 metre planter comfortably. I see here people using 300 on 6 or 8m, using all the power, looks more like subsoiling than planting. Certainly not low disturbance that's for sure

 

[Farmer Roy]

PS - we are on heavy land. Only ever work to the depth that seed is planted, generally 25 - 50 mm deep

as to swarm / robot tech, the future is coming. Bring it on

https://seedotrun.com/video.php

even this tyne planter they are using is still disturbing very little soil by comparison

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I also don't understand the UK principle of zero till. We might use a 250 - 300hp tractor on a 12 metre planter comfortably. I see here people using 300 on 6 or 8m, using all the power, looks more like subsoiling than planting. Certainly not low disturbance that's for sure

You mean a deep ripper, a sumo, a bash with a Terrastar and a stubble rake may be "why no-till doesn't work"?

Yes, bizarre indeed, I do realise the factors that bring it about but it appears to be a recipe for disaster to me - the worst of both worlds, really.

To the OP a serious number of local farmers are binning the tine drills and investing in disc drills for exactly the reasons you mentioned, less weeds, less slug pressure, less drag on the tractor

I know several Duncan renovators/Aitchisons on the market where the farmers have combined and bought an large Allen custom drill between them and simply share it/tractor hours as a group

http://www.allencustomdrills.co.nz

 

[Farmer Roy]

You mean a deep ripper, a sumo, a bash with a Terrastar and a stubble rake may be "why no-till doesn't work"?

Yes, bizarre indeed, I do realise the factors that bring it about but it appears to be a recipe for disaster to me - the worst of both worlds, really.

To the OP a serious number of local farmers are binning the tine drills and investing in disc drills for exactly the reasons you mentioned, less weeds, less slug pressure, less drag on the tractor

I know several Duncan renovators/Aitchisons on the market where the farmers have combined and bought an large Allen custom drill between them and simply share it/tractor hours as a group

http://www.allencustomdrills.co.nz

Haha - I haven't even bothered to learn the names or terminology

Along with removing all the stubble cover ( a crucial part of our system is RETAINING as much cover as possible. Part of my drive to grow cover crops is to INCREASE ground cover ) it does seem as you say, to be combining the worst of both systems . . .

f**kem

 

[Farmer Roy]

Haha - their direct drill still seems to involve more passes & earthmoving than our old conventional cultivation systems ever did

 

[Farmer Roy]

What I can't get my head around is the sheer HP they use on such narrow gear
They must still be doing a lot of " earthmoving "

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Yeah - worm castings under groundcover are more of a seedbed than any kind of man-made "tilth" can be (tin hat on)
Sure, it is a haven for slugs but that is a biodversity issue not a mechanical fault of soil habitat

 

[Will Blackburn]

To be fair we have narrower row widths over here, typically 6".

 

[Farmer Roy]

People were predicting increases of fungal diseases, mouse numbers etc years ago here due to retained stubble cover. Pretty much didn't happen, but when it did it was a rotation / management / lack of biodiversity problem more than anything else

 

[Farmer Roy]

To be fair we have narrower row widths over here, typically 6".

Even more reason for less disturbance in each row then I would have thought

Plenty of low disturbance zero till disc machines here on narrow 6" row spacings

 

[Farmer Roy]

Originally, up until the 80's or 90's when min till then zero till first became popular, our " conventional " row spacings were 5 - 6 "

Wide rows became popular first for increased trash flow in fairly unsophisticated early planters, & then largely for cost savings on newer machines ( obviously 13" spacings require less row units & a simpler / lighter frame than 6" do , so much cheaper purchase price )

Summer crops such as cotton / Sorghum / sunflowers / maize are generally grown on wide ( 30" - 1m ) rows for agronomic reasons. Those same ground engaging parts / openers can be used on any row spacing you like though

 

[Farmer Roy]

To be fair we have narrower row widths over here, typically 6".

Sorry, I may have misinterpreted your comment. Were you talking about HP requirements ? Narrow rows = more rows / metre = more HP required ?

My brother in law grows a lot of hay, so he wanted narrow row spacings so the stalks hold the swath / windrow of the ground to minimise soil contamination in his hay. He has a 12m ( 40 foot ) double disc planter on 5 or 6" row spacings ( can't remember exactly, but f**k me there are a lot of row units under there . . . ) & pulls it around quite easily with a 30 yr old green Steiger 4WD of about 250 HP . That's 80 individual row units, about 3 HP per row, forgetting about the power to run the hdy fan on his airseeder or anything else . . .

 

[Wigeon]

Disc it is then! I must admit that I have half an eye on an organic no till future too- eg wheat sliced into a nice permanent white clover cover that is managed somehow to let the crop in the row grow and suppress the weeds in between. Not quite sure how this could be made to work though!

Yes, it's interesting on the horsepower question. Just been reading Humus and the farmer( published 1946) and whilst he's big into ploughing and subsoiling in particular, all his work, including his 7m rolls, is done with his 'big' 30-50 hp machines.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

To be fair we have narrower row widths over here, typically 6".

Is that a possible marginal reaction?

What moves less soil per pass, 6 inch spacings or 9" - 10"?

It likely is as simple as that who would cross-drill cereals and why not?

It is feasible that in future seed will be drilled with no mechanical opening, think air-rifle / pressure washer / mig welder...

Again swinging this back to the OP is an interim option to run a wider row spacing on a tine drill through heavier residues? Ie same number of points but 40-50% wider?
Groundcover provides good resistance to surface movement.

 

[Wigeon]

Is that a possible marginal reaction?

What moves less soil per pass, 6 inch spacings or 9" - 10"?

It likely is as simple as that who would cross-drill cereals and why not?

It is feasible that in future seed will be drilled with no mechanical opening, think air-rifle / pressure washer / mig welder...

Again swinging this back to the OP is an interim option to run a wider row spacing on a tine drill through heavier residues? Ie same number of points but 40-50% wider?
Groundcover provides good resistance to surface movement.

I'm already at 250mm- conventional wisdom is that any wider and yield will vanish. Heavier residues though is certainly a way ahead though as you say- nothing stops the soil being chucked around like it.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Is that a possible marginal reaction?

What moves less soil per pass, 6 inch spacings or 9" - 10"?

It likely is as simple as that who would cross-drill cereals and why not?

It is feasible that in future seed will be drilled with no mechanical opening, think air-rifle / pressure washer / mig welder...

Funny you should mention pressure washer
There is a company here trialing using high pressure water jets ( think of the type that are used for cutting through plate steel ) instead of a coulter disc to slice through stubble in front of the disc or Tyne when planting ( apart from residue flow & machine blockages, stubble can cause issues with "hairpinning" of straw within the actual plant row & affecting germination )
It's not that large a leap to think that could be adapted to actually planting the seed at some point . . .

 

[Wigeon]

Yes, I read about that. Seem to recall seed depth was a potential issue given variable nature of the surface that the water jet was faced with.

 

[Farmer Roy]

I'm already at 250mm- conventional wisdom is that any wider and yield will vanish. Heavier residues though is certainly a way ahead though as you say- nothing stops the soil being chucked around like it.

I've been planting winter cereals on both my own farm & as a contractor on 333mm spacings since 1995 . . .

Average winter cereal row spacings here would be 250 - 375mm
Further north / west they go out to 400mm

Obviously, my environment ( & yield expectations ) is probably very different to yours though