Mules to easycare

[Jackson4]

You can't lamb hundreds of triplets inside without a lot of labour, expense and often deaths either.

Take note of @Jop 's post above and GO's past advice. High lambing percentage doesn't necessarily equal high profit.
That said,if you're on limited acreage and have plenty of time on your hands, it may be that high lambing percentage is the way forward.
It's a shame Creedmoor never made it across from the other side as they had a really interesting system lambing outdoors with high prolificacy and getting a high proportion of lambs away by weaning. Think @JD-Kid knows them, perhaps he could give a prod?

Personally I've sourced a prolific strain of Romneys and am going to see what level I can live best with. I suspect it'll be easier to lower the levels than raise them.

Well i cant see why every ewe with 2 lambs is much more labour than a ewe with 1.62. I know once you get past 180 your getting trips, but i think high prolificacy off grass, 2 lambs a ewe was ideal? with all that year round maintenance why would you choose the next 4 months? with 1 lamb on 2 teats? Just need a way of regulating a ewe to have 2 lambs? Everyone has to think they have limited acreage to make money... if you earn more with a small acreage surely you'll earn even more with a big acreage.
Of course if you can get a breed with more or less triplets it doesnt make alot of difference unless your going to mother them all on... it takes as much labour to feed 5 pet lambs as 50 with modern equipment, and of course you'd better be earning money elsewhere when someone is overlooking mothering on pens as otherwise your farm will show less profit. I just dont want the work though
I did 195% last year and my sheep are so.... not motherly inclined? alot of the time i can get a lamb on first time.. dont use adopters, only ever tie her up initially if she thinks twice. But about every ewe went out with 2 lambs? Had about 30 singles in 500? Which is what i told stephen local auctioneer when he rings round for trade (thought i was selling dead) I appreciate this aint possible with mules or texel xs etc

 

[neilo]

Well i cant see why every ewe with 2 lambs is much more labour than a ewe with 1.62. I know once you get past 180 your getting trips, but i think high prolificacy off grass, 2 lambs a ewe was ideal? with all that year round maintenance why would you choose the next 4 months? with 1 lamb on 2 teats? Just need a way of regulating a ewe to have 2 lambs? Everyone has to think they have limited acreage to make money... if you earn more with a small acreage surely you'll earn even more with a big acreage.
Of course if you can get a breed with more or less triplets it doesnt make alot of difference unless your going to mother them all on... it takes as much labour to feed 5 pet lambs as 50 with modern equipment, and of course you'd better be earning money elsewhere when someone is overlooking mothering on pens as otherwise your farm will show less profit. I just dont want the work though

I was mulling over an idea of increasing prolificacy in the Spring ( I have time to mull at lambing time these days). The ideal must surely be as many ewes as possible rearing twins, and with outdoor lambing fostering on to singles is always going to be a problem. Would it be more profitable to reduce the numbers of singles by increasing prolificacy nearer to 200%, then take one off the extra triplets you'd end up with. If it's not economic to rear them artificially, you could sell/give them away as pet lambs, rather than lose money on them. If you're a hard barsteward, I suppose you could tap them on the head instead, rather than lose money, but I'm certainly not of that nature.

 

[Jackson4]

rotisserie? A drug which you could give to the majority of your trips after scanning which would reliably abort one egg. Then you'd not waste feed? A bit off topic.

 

[neilo]

rotisserie? A drug which you could give to the majority of your trips after scanning which would reliably abort one egg. Then you'd not waste feed? A bit off topic.

I don't feed trips any more than twins these days. On forage rations, they tend to compensate by raising intakes. What convinced me was when an outdoor lamber pointed out that the odd trip the scanner misses, that runs with the twins, seems to cope just fine. And they always do, don't they?

 

[GTB]

I don't feed trips any more than twins these days. On forage rations, they tend to compensate by raising intakes. What convinced me was when an outdoor lamber pointed out that the odd trip the scanner misses, that runs with the twins, seems to cope just fine. And they always do, don't they?

Even if they don't cope they usually have two good lambs and one runt so who cares?

 

[JD-Kid]

You can't lamb hundreds of triplets inside without a lot of labour, expense and often deaths either.

Take note of @Jop 's post above and GO's past advice. High lambing percentage doesn't necessarily equal high profit.
That said,if you're on limited acreage and have plenty of time on your hands, it may be that high lambing percentage is the way forward.
It's a shame Creedmoor never made it across from the other side as they had a really interesting system lambing outdoors with high prolificacy and getting a high proportion of lambs away by weaning. Think @JD-Kid knows them, perhaps he could give a prod?

Personally I've sourced a prolific strain of Romneys and am going to see what level I can live best with. I suspect it'll be easier to lower the levels than raise them.

yep i know them i don't know if i would call them eazycare as such think last count a heap of pet lambs 40+ on a feeder lambs have knitted wooly coats put on them etc etc .. BUT they do get the out put from them and would be makeing a profit could they do the same with 3000 i don't belive so with out higher labour units
we scanned just over 150% (triplets were not taken out but i don't belive there was many and don't see a lot about ) tailed in the yards 140 % over all main ewes hoggets still to tail
our losses over lambing of ewes etc was OK maybe 70 ewes from set stocking to tailing BUT had a bad run with bearings pre lamb loseing 200 odd ewes even some of the 70 would be tail end of the bearings
some places had lower than that others had a lot higher i have heard some shocking storys of losses from bearings it is showing up some things and is also placeing some questions on the years trials bearings were looked at with some vets now not fully beliveing the outcomes and questoning the reports ..
our twinning types tailed 170-180's with just being looked at the odd one lambed so high % can be done it's just high triplet numbers to me out doors triplets are a waste of time one bad storm the whole lot can be gone twins are tougher also more chance of getting twins up to a good weight
god in a can spray paint may help with the culling you can still meet all the welfair things but just mark any prob animals look at past records before starting out and cull whole familys on both ewe and ram sides don't buy rams in the sale ring buy off supplyers you can talk to and get the answers you are after ,breeders with the same goals etc etc not after ribbons and cups

 

[Tim W]

read the figures and learn----

outdoor lambing is on average a low input medium output most profit system

Hi scanning %ages/fostering/bottle rearing/assisted births all cost money and deduct from your bottom line which is what counts

 

[exmoor dave]

yep i know them i don't know if i would call them eazycare as such think last count a heap of pet lambs 40+ on a feeder lambs have knitted wooly coats put on them etc etc .. BUT they do get the out put from them and would be makeing a profit could they do the same with 3000 i don't belive so with out higher labour units
we scanned just over 150% (triplets were not taken out but i don't belive there was many and don't see a lot about ) tailed in the yards 140 % over all main ewes hoggets still to tail
our losses over lambing of ewes etc was OK maybe 70 ewes from set stocking to tailing BUT had a bad run with bearings pre lamb loseing 200 odd ewes even some of the 70 would be tail end of the bearings
some places had lower than that others had a lot higher i have heard some shocking storys of losses from bearings it is showing up some things and is also placeing some questions on the years trials bearings were looked at with some vets now not fully beliveing the outcomes and questoning the reports ..
our twinning types tailed 170-180's with just being looked at the odd one lambed so high % can be done it's just high triplet numbers to me out doors triplets are a waste of time one bad storm the whole lot can be gone twins are tougher also more chance of getting twins up to a good weight
god in a can spray paint may help with the culling you can still meet all the welfair things but just mark any prob animals look at past records before starting out and cull whole familys on both ewe and ram sides don't buy rams in the sale ring buy off supplyers you can talk to and get the answers you are after ,breeders with the same goals etc etc not after ribbons and cups

Bloody hell JD! I'm guessing "bearing" is prolapses?

What do you think caused that?
Do you usually have problems with prolapses?

It's odd with prolapses, can have terrible years and other years with next to no problem.

 

[JD-Kid]

Bloody hell JD! I'm guessing "bearing" is prolapses?

What do you think caused that?
Do you usually have problems with prolapses?

It's odd with prolapses, can have terrible years and other years with next to no problem.

yep prolapses in UK terms

ummmmmm long list of thing but there are a few things that maybe linking to it tie up with Ca and Mg/K thats the simple one but if we dig deeper low Vit D will have an efect on how the animal uses Ca if we dig deeper Iodine is linked in there as well as a controler .. and if we keeping digging sleep lowers the bodys use of Ca and up sets it walking around lifts Ca

SO most hill places lower in Ca but can be low in all things so balance is OK get alot of coastal rains I levels maybe high linked to low sunlight wooly etc so Vid D will be low if going on and off feed breaks lack of movement ewes fill up fast so have an after dinner sleep on a hill side and boom blow out
high rains could lower Ca levels or make soil cold if air temp is warm grass takes up K and Mg the K afects the Mg as well

this year localy alot of bearings on cooler shady farms good rains so higher winter feeds ewes less active also alot of low Ca probs over lambing vets sold heaps of products to treat ewes

next year may not get any due to season

we are going to give ewes long acting iodine and a shot of high powered Vit D,E,A pre mateing ..pre lamb they will get another hit of vit D,E,A ...

maybe keep in mind most of our sheep more merino breeds so more used to the sun so may have changed to being poorer at getting vit D from the sun , kinda like texels are good at uptakeing copper due to there gene make up over years of survile

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Well i cant see why every ewe with 2 lambs is much more labour than a ewe with 1.62. I know once you get past 180 your getting trips, but i think high prolificacy off grass, 2 lambs a ewe was ideal? with all that year round maintenance why would you choose the next 4 months? with 1 lamb on 2 teats? Just need a way of regulating a ewe to have 2 lambs? Everyone has to think they have limited acreage to make money... if you earn more with a small acreage surely you'll earn even more with a big acreage.
Of course if you can get a breed with more or less triplets it doesnt make alot of difference unless your going to mother them all on... it takes as much labour to feed 5 pet lambs as 50 with modern equipment, and of course you'd better be earning money elsewhere when someone is overlooking mothering on pens as otherwise your farm will show less profit. I just dont want the work though

But every ewe doesn't have 2 does she? More prolificacy equals more labour. If you've got 500 and that labour is just yourself no problem, if you want the work of mothering on 100 triplets (Though you just said you dont)
But if you've got 5000, that labour has to be paid for, and lambing 5000 indoors scanning at 200+% is going to take a lot of it, whereas on a good outdoor system 1 man could theoretically lamb those 5000.

 

[Downton_shep]

Blimy I've got some reading to do tonight!

 

[Northumberland]

5000 one man would be depressing, just catching the prolapses and stitching them in and getting round the acres wouldn't leave much time for dinner would it?
Unless a low scanning% a could do 5000 singles or 20000 gelds

 

[JD-Kid]

But every ewe doesn't have 2 does she? More prolificacy equals more labour. If you've got 500 and that labour is just yourself no problem, if you want the work of mothering on 100 triplets (Though you just said you dont)
But if you've got 5000, that labour has to be paid for, and lambing 5000 indoors scanning at 200+% is going to take a lot of it, whereas on a good outdoor system 1 man could theoretically lamb those 5000.

yea he could would need labour for tailing etc etc even if tailing later in bigger mobs at 5000 you sometimes have to turn a blind eye save 1 to wreck 6 kinda deal
we used to scan down south run the twins apart but then mix them up for set stocking less probs get 7 ewes in an area all with twins can become a pain to sort out where 4 sets of twins and 3 singles sort them selfs out a bit
do know of guys that tie the gates back over lambing and let the ewes do there own thing don't agree with that pays to check them a few times a day from a distance .. on the other hand i worked for guys who could not help themselfs and had to get in there doing things why no idea lead to more probs
stud i know had a irish guy work there one year lambed just about every ewe rush in pulled lambs did not lose many but kinda defeated the whole idea of eazy lambing and eazy care masked a lot of probs as well

 

[Northumberland]

A neighbour goes round at midnight with a lamp.
Am more of a 6 til 6 man

 

[Global ovine]

Thanks GO, for or against? same outcome (blimey hes pedantic)... a couple of my ewes which have had breach births have been so tight in the pelvis that you'd struggle to get your hand in. If you recorded these traits back to the ram, the ewes hes bred from etc etc. You'd think the easycare breeders would have this high on the list.

Yes I'm am pedantic because if I had a way of recording to select for easy birth outside when shepherding is only once or twice a day drive-bys, I and other NZ ram breeders would have used it over those two decades when ewes per labour unit increased by 3-4 times. However, nothing existed, so we are still left with culling offenders. That's selection against the trait of difficult birth, not selecting for ease of birth. Animal shape helps a lot. But a ewe with a big pelvis can still get rid of a blunt lamb.
In an indoor lambing situation, timing the unassisted birth process may help as a tool to select for easy birth. That job would drive me to tears tho'.
I have written several times on this forum and spoken at farmer meetings about the various birthing difficulties and whether they qualify for culling the ewe and her progeny from the gene pool. Breach birth is not the dams fault, but some sires throw lambs which are not active in the womb, hence do not help themselves to get into the correct position for birth. This is the reason why some farmers comment that the occurrence of breach birth has suddenly increased in one year, because of a new ram brought into the flock. Breach is more common in triplets as there is usually not much room for foetal movement.

 

[Tim W]

5000 one man would be depressing, just catching the prolapses and stitching them in and getting round the acres wouldn't leave much time for dinner would it?
Unless a low scanning% a could do 5000 singles or 20000 gelds

prolapses? --need better management to keep them leaner

what's a low %age scanning? Outdoors 170% is plenty

I lamb 1000 ewes with a 150+ mile round trip to see them all and I'm usually back home by 3pm ---5000 in one place, bring it on

lambing is something the ewes do ---I just record the details

 

[Northumberland]

Hey up @JD-Kid Tim reckons ya just need better management

 

[JD-Kid]

5000 one man would be depressing, just catching the prolapses and stitching them in and getting round the acres wouldn't leave much time for dinner would it?
Unless a low scanning% a could do 5000 singles or 20000 gelds

depending on set up lane ways etc etc dose not take long to look over alot of area used to look after 3000+ check 2 times a day and plow 1/2 the day as well if there are no probs yer move on quite quick a few areas around the farm with small holding paddocks to mother up etc etc it's the type of set ups .. bit like haveing a 300 acre cropping paddock or 30 10 acre paddocks some things just become eazer on bigger scale and layout .. sheep smaller paddocks for feed use etc but a lane system stops opening gates etc
bearings ummmm i had fat dogs other places bring in fix and keep handy to yards to check big mark on them mum and the kids all on the bus at weaning
seeing most bearings in twin's and triplets have them in eazer to catch areas or get yer rifle sighted in better never seen a ewe run over 2000 feet per second

 

[JD-Kid]

Hey up @JD-Kid Tim reckons ya just need better management

Oh how i laugh HAHAHA lean and lazy will have as many as big and fit

vet was telling me a while back there was a coopworth place down south had about 4-500 bearings a year they saved hill blocks for after shearing .. they then went to walking them each day from one area to another maybe 1/2 a k a day (note in posting above walking works on helping Ca balance ) Ca related to musule tone and contractions
went from 4-500 down to around 100 no change in fert ,min's used ,ewe weight,scanning % just got them moveing also not letting the stuff them selfs in feeding frenzys ... along with lower losses also found a higher lambing % at tailing ewes lambed better

 

[Tim W]

Oh how i laugh HAHAHA lean and lazy will have as many as big and fit

vet was telling me a while back there was a coopworth place down south had about 4-500 bearings a year they saved hill blocks for after shearing .. they then went to walking them each day from one area to another maybe 1/2 a k a day (note in posting above walking works on helping Ca balance ) Ca related to musule tone and contractions
went from 4-500 down to around 100 no change in fert ,min's used ,ewe weight,scanning % just got them moveing also not letting the stuff them selfs in feeding frenzys ... along with lower losses also found a higher lambing % at tailing ewes lambed better

point proved---better management resulted in reduction from 4-500 to 100
I think 1 prolapse a year would be the average here ---usually a quad or some other undesirable