Mules to easycare

[Jackson4]

Really interesting stuff GO as usual Worth saying again as some haven't heard/cant remember, or haven't been to your meetings. (im in the cant really remember camp, and not been to your meetings)
You'd have thought modern scanners would be capable of scanning between the pelvic bones wouldn't you? if they can scan the depth of back fat/muscle etc. Alot of the cheap chinese scanners i looked at last year had anal probes with them. somebody needs to get on with it. I guess you'd make quicker progress selecting for a wide pelvis rather than against when a problem is found... if you see what i mean

 

[Jackson4]

But every ewe doesn't have 2 does she? More prolificacy equals more labour. If you've got 500 and that labour is just yourself no problem, if you want the work of mothering on 100 triplets (Though you just said you dont)
But if you've got 5000, that labour has to be paid for, and lambing 5000 indoors scanning at 200+% is going to take a lot of it, whereas on a good outdoor system 1 man could theoretically lamb those 5000.

I agree, i haven't got 5000 and neither does hardly anybody else in this country. Obviously larger flocks need lower labour and im setting myself up for outside lambing for when/if i can get numbers up. All this more prolificacy equals more labour is absolutely right, but your forgeting the other words... more profit? somewhere there is a balance between using your labour to save deaths, or keeping more sheep and not.
If you have land for 300 sheep and no other job and work on your own (most of the people around here) have the buildings to house them and mules running at 220% I'm betting you will make more profit to pay your bills than sitting in bed and turfing them out to pasture unassisted!
Whether you want the work or not is up to you, too high a % for me. Would this person make more profit if he got easycares with same land, no other job etc and lambed at 140%150/160? and sat in bed with his feet up?

I lambed 460 on my own last year, had 60 triplets and 60 twins (about) and mothered 30 with barely any fuss, pet lambed the others which i would have sold as pets if i could. Obviously there are sheep losses and some lamb losses but the majority of the sheep would be out with 2 lambs as oppposed to half with 1 and half with 2 Since two thirds made made £95 average with no creep, and the last third around £70 (£240 of barley) then the 200 lambs over a 150% scanning flock would be worth £16000 for what is a job i'm going to be out doing anyway and the labour for lambing on some triplets.

I'm not favouring one over the other i'm just trying to get to the truth of the matter. i will probably go outside lambing myself, but i dont want to drop my lambing % down 170/160/150140% as liz genever says at eblex a 'higher lambing % is driving higher profit on lowland farms' the top third lamb more lambs. Ask nz dan about what lambing % he wants... 3 for every ewe i think

 

[Jackson4]

read the figures and learn----

outdoor lambing is on average a low input medium output most profit system

Hi scanning %ages/fostering/bottle rearing/assisted births all cost money and deduct from your bottom line which is what counts

What figures? Read my post above and learn there might be a possible balancing act of own labour/higher % sheep/more profit? Dont forget this is real life and not just a paper exercise on charging yourself vast amounts of money for your own labour. On eblex the top third flocks which made the most profit per ewe had the highest lambing %.... thats including labour.

 

[Jackson4]

Blimy I've got some reading to do tonight!

Sorry sorry... my fault (well actually neilo's)

 

[JD-Kid]

point proved---better management resulted in reduction from 4-500 to 100
I think 1 prolapse a year would be the average here ---usually a quad or some other undesirable

too a point there was talk years ago keeping ewes leaner but yet had the same amount of probs come lambing time know others walked ewes about still big ewes and fat yet no probs
we had bearings in singles and even have a few any time of the year which is a real pi55 off starting to get a grip on the resons and have a plan to test next year

 

[Poorbuthappy]

We have just had the Eblex stocktake through the post and it is interesting that of the lowland April/May lambing flocks, for average and top third producers, lamb mortality is around 19%. And what is more interesting is that top third producers only scan at 162% whilst the average scan at 173%. The top third producers are making more profit per ewe simply down to lower costs and not higher output. Turnovers vanity, profit is sanity!

I agree, i haven't got 5000 and neither does hardly anybody else in this country. Obviously larger flocks need lower labour and im setting myself up for outside lambing for when/if i can get numbers up. All this more prolificacy equals more labour is absolutely right, but your forgeting the other words... more profit? somewhere there is a balance between using your labour to save deaths, or keeping more sheep and not.
If you have land for 300 sheep and no other job and work on your own (most of the people around here) have the buildings to house them and mules running at 220% I'm betting you will make more profit to pay your bills than sitting in bed and turfing them out to pasture unassisted!
Whether you want the work or not is up to you, too high a % for me. Would this person make more profit if he got easycares with same land, no other job etc and lambed at 140%150/160? and sat in bed with his feet up?

I lambed 460 on my own last year, had 60 triplets and 60 twins (about) and mothered 30 with barely any fuss, pet lambed the others which i would have sold as pets if i could. Obviously there are sheep losses and some lamb losses but the majority of the sheep would be out with 2 lambs as oppposed to half with 1 and half with 2 Since two thirds made made £95 average with no creep, and the last third around £70 (£240 of barley) then the 200 lambs over a 150% scanning flock would be worth £16000 for what is a job i'm going to be out doing anyway and the labour for lambing on some triplets.

I'm not favouring one over the other i'm just trying to get to the truth of the matter. i will probably go outside lambing myself, but i dont want to drop my lambing % down 170/160/150140% as liz genever says at eblex a 'higher lambing % is driving higher profit on lowland farms' the top third lamb more lambs... something timw cant have read? Ask nz dan about what lambing % he wants... 3 for every ewe i think

I'm not forgetting the other word (profit) at all. More prolificacy DOESN'T NECESSARILY mean more profit, see Jop ' s post above that I referred you to earlier.
Higher prolificacy doesn't just create extra labour costs in mothering on/ rearing pet lambs. The whole package of indoor lambing, with extra feed, labour and fixed costs has to be allowed for.
I'm not saying high input high output can't be profitable, just that low input medium output can be just as profitable.

Agree on your 300 ewe flock scenario, presuming buildings available. BUT my reference to Creedmoor on the old forum was that high output can be managed outdoors on forage based system too if you're that way inclined.

 

[romneymarsh]

What figures? Read my post above and learn there might be a possible balancing act of own labour/higher % sheep/more profit? Dont forget this is real life and not just a paper exercise on charging yourself vast amounts of money for your own labour. On eblex the top third flocks which made the most profit per ewe had the highest lambing %.... thats including labour.

Most profit per ewe is surely not the bench mark you should be looking at , profit per ha. The enterprise.

I've got a few really good ewes let's look at them? And ignore the other '000?

 

[Jackson4]

Most profit per ewe is surely not the bench mark you should be looking at , profit per ha. The enterprise.

I've got a few really good ewes let's look at them? And ignore the other '000?

I don't think you can conveniently ignore some it will be the average.. To be honest I can't remember it could have been ha? Have a look on eblex

I'm not forgetting the other word (profit) at all. More prolificacy DOESN'T NECESSARILY mean more profit, see Jop ' s post above that I referred you to earlier.
Higher prolificacy doesn't just create extra labour costs in mothering on/ rearing pet lambs. The whole package of indoor lambing, with extra feed, labour and fixed costs has to be allowed for.
I'm not saying high input high output can't be profitable, just that low input medium output can be just as profitable.

Agree on your 300 ewe flock scenario, presuming buildings available. BUT my reference to Creedmoor on the old forum was that high output can be managed outdoors on forage based system too if you're that way inclined.

Well if they are getting is only what they would be getting outside, cept the less labour of feeding in. Don't forget if everybody in this country produced lamb off grass in Aug/sept/Oct then the price people are getting now off grass will surely fall because of the huge amount of lambs. Leyburn mart was selling as many in may as it was in october. It fell here to mid 50s. So it won't sound so good when everyone does it.
The sheep are footbathed and onto dry clean bedding, so better feet health, the pasture isn't compacted by feeding sheep outside, so more grass growth available in the spring, the manure is taken out now, a weeks work as a cost, however high nutrient value muck, no leaching, spread in 10 weeks, one tractor and 10 ton trailer don't use much fuel. £50 for the lighting? Used12 ton of straw last year. Bed down with rough hay first.
I have a good system, modern big 120ft x 60 shed and 40 x 80ft and 2 others. Everything bar sheep long payed for. Nearly all concrete... Very good high output lowish labour system.

There are costs for lambing outside as well, travelling fuel etc...I would think catching lambs and sheep outside in the peeing rain is a cost... Guy whos been boasting about having really low costs for years, wishing away the sfp so he can't take more land has... Yep you guessed just put up a building for lambing in to make it easier in his words! Of course if you get a bad year weather wise you have shelter, a hell of a cost loosing hundreds of sheep and lambs.
In my system the lambs can be recorded and tagged at birth, birthing ease, dam, ram, keep/kill etc in a pen tailed and let out onto spring grass.(well this year anyway) whats the extra labour of catching lambs outside, recording traits, tagging and tailing etc? Don't mind solving lambing problems etc.
I wouldnt be so arrogant to tell someone they'd make more money than they are outside lambing with a low % ewe, as I don't know the costs of there system now? It might be very well thought out and low labour with really high lambing % ewe and lambs sold, or it might be high labour, high cost? To be honest i wouldn't even preach to people that on grass alone is the way to make the most profit.... some people small acres creeping belties/dutch texels are selling them early for up to £130 .Alot of room for profit there on grass and creep. My neighbour is going early lambing this time. Some systems will work

 

[Jop]

Every farm is different so different systems work better on some farms rather than others. I agree if you have existing sheds, low labour costs (family labour) then indoors can work and can work well.

For us personally we were looking to more than double our ewe numbers and keep a closed flock so outdoor lambing with Romneys looks to be the way forward for us. We could have put up some more sheds and found more labour at lambing time but it just doesn't stack up to do this, all labour here is paid anyway as I am just a manager and not the farm owner which really brings labour costs into perspective.

Also problem with labour is finding good labour! Real lack of skilled people for lambing and any one that is any good is going to cost you over £800/week. That's the profit from a lot of lambs! In reality that extra person has to save you 2 lambs a day to pay for themselves.

One profit measurement that I am always keen to use is the return on capital from the system, all the money tied up in the sheep enterprise has to pay the same way as if you invested the money in stocks and shares. Using this along with profit/ha and profit/ewe will give you a pretty good picture.

In terms of producing lamb at different times of year, we have a small Dorset ewe enterprise to produce lamb for the early market, this is high cost but if prices are good then it pays well but if prices are poor then it can lose money. I would say that with a low cost April lambing flock you know where you stand and are less dependent on the market prices.

Everyone has a different farm situation so what works for us doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

 

[romneymarsh]

I have a good system, modern big 120ft x 60 shed and 40 x 80ft and 2 others. Everything bar sheep long payed for. Nearly all concrete... Very good high output lowish labour system.

Good for you, sounds like you're doing the right thing for you.

Take those historical assets out of the system or think about finding capital to build them, then have another look. Not that you have to of course. Circumstances of Advantage I think sums it up.

 

[Aspiring Peasant]

An alternativehttp://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/hands-on-style-for-best-lamb-returns.htm

 

[romneymarsh]

An alternativehttp://www.fwi.co.uk/livestock/hands-on-style-for-best-lamb-returns.htm

Articles like that always make me smile. Famous for five minutes good for him. Let's all do it ? I thought Beltex were the slowest growing breed and needed heaps of food and that they nearly all need pulling , shows how wrong you can be ?

Having had articles written by journos about myself years ago I know just how inaccurate and glossy they can be!

 

[Jackson4]

Good for you, sounds like you're doing the right thing for you.

Take those historical assets out of the system or think about finding capital to build them, then have another look. Not that you have to of course. Circumstances of Advantage I think sums it up.

I agree i wouldn't be putting them up if i started off from scratch, nor would i buy all the machinery but thats my system and ive upgraded my machinery to make it work more efficiently (my new to me £1400 10 ton trailer has to last another 20 years!) i'd be a dog and stick farmer, but they were bought by my dad as a dairy farmer and he worked bloody hard for them and ive done part work here as well I also pay so much through the rent for the farmyard in the rent about 10 spring lambs covers it. It really isnt worth giving it up and parking all my equipment in a field, and all the other things i use the farmyard for.. firewood, garage, cider pressing etc I and my mother live next to the yard.

 

[Aspiring Peasant]

Articles like that always make me smile. Famous for five minutes good for him. Let's all do it ? I thought Beltex were the slowest growing breed and needed heaps of food and that they nearly all need pulling , shows how wrong you can be ?

Having had articles written by journos about myself years ago I know just how inaccurate and glossy they can be!

However, I know they have 40-50 lambs in most weeks at Kirkby and do top the mart most weeks. My neighbour and I are both trying beltex instead of Texels on mules and texel cross mules. He is ahead of me on this and reckons his beltex crosses are averaging £5 ph more than theTexels. Both are treated exactly the same.

 

[Jackson4]

Every farm is different so different systems work better on some farms rather than others. I agree if you have existing sheds, low labour costs (family labour) then indoors can work and can work well.

For us personally we were looking to more than double our ewe numbers and keep a closed flock so outdoor lambing with Romneys looks to be the way forward for us. We could have put up some more sheds and found more labour at lambing time but it just doesn't stack up to do this, all labour here is paid anyway as I am just a manager and not the farm owner which really brings labour costs into perspective.

Also problem with labour is finding good labour! Real lack of skilled people for lambing and any one that is any good is going to cost you over £800/week. That's the profit from a lot of lambs! In reality that extra person has to save you 2 lambs a day to pay for themselves.

One profit measurement that I am always keen to use is the return on capital from the system, all the money tied up in the sheep enterprise has to pay the same way as if you invested the money in stocks and shares. Using this along with profit/ha and profit/ewe will give you a pretty good picture.

In terms of producing lamb at different times of year, we have a small Dorset ewe enterprise to produce lamb for the early market, this is high cost but if prices are good then it pays well but if prices are poor then it can lose money. I would say that with a low cost April lambing flock you know where you stand and are less dependent on the market prices.

Everyone has a different farm situation so what works for us doesn't mean it will work for everyone.

I agree on all apart from the bit about stocks and shares think in 2008 they might have wished theyd got as much as farming... was a good lamb price that spring i think.

Once flocks get bigger than own labour can handle then theyre probably better going outside lambing rather than employing high paid, hard to find labour...as i've said when i get up to 600/650 i would either have to make the system easier still or go outside. But not all systems are in the same boat. I may want an easier life, but if i loose 5/8/10% more lambs and scan 20/30/40% less then i may have made more money lambing in? I also farm on the top of the pennines.

I have ewes which are very easy lambers (pulled half a dozen last lambing) my rams are bred for such things (nz texel/meatlincs) so no big blocky pigs here... set up for low lambing losses beit inside when i'm there or out. I though high scanning and minimising lambing losses was the biggest driver of profit?