Multiple C Sections

[M-J-G]

not an easily managed herd no,but if you want to be selling the top quality stores and getting a premium for your calves you will have to tolerate the odd caesar here and there i`m afraid!

Why?

 

[Blaithin]

You deal with cattle long enough you’ll eventually have a C. Doesn’t have to have anything to do with size either.

Last one I had before this particular cow was because of a twisted uterus. Also had them due to twins and have seen due to a deformed calf that can happen for spontaneous unknown reasons.

Be silly to tar all Cs with the same brush.

 

[muleman]

Why?

Because not all of those calves which make £1500 or £2000 as 10 month old stores are stood looking at you when you go through the calving shed door, some are, but one or 2 arent.

 

[M-J-G]

You deal with cattle long enough you’ll eventually have a C. Doesn’t have to have anything to do with size either.

Last one I had before this particular cow was because of a twisted uterus. Also had them due to twins and have seen due to a deformed calf that can happen for spontaneous unknown reasons.

Be silly to tar all Cs with the same brush.

Every one who has a reasonable number of cattle for a decade or two will have one or two for various reasons, but they are all due to problems, and problem genetics are better to be culled.

With AB usage likely to become more limited, as well as people (including the vet) becoming more expensive, I see less and less place for genetics that require intervention or any super natural means of keeping them alive.

 

[M-J-G]

Because not all of those calves which make £1500 or £2000 as 10 month old stores are stood looking at you when you go through the calving shed door, some are, but one or 2 arent.

Do you find that there is a correlation between top end stores and calving difficulty?
Which breeds?

 

[muleman]

Do you find that there is a correlation between top end stores and calving difficulty?
Which breeds?

I find there is a huge difference between top end store price and the bottom end,the last sale we topped at £1250 and bottomed out at £590...the £590 one is no good to anybody, the secret is to get try and get as many £1250 ones as possible without the need for caesareans but inevitably the more you push things you are starting to run that risk. we run limousin and belgian blues, most calve fairly easily but a few need assistance.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

I find there is a huge difference between top end store price and the bottom end,the last sale we topped at £1250 and bottomed out at £590...the £590 one is no good to anybody, the secret is to get try and get as many £1250 ones as possible without the need for caesareans but inevitably the more you push things you are starting to run that risk. we run limousin and belgian blues, most calve fairly easily but a few need assistance.

Trouble is if you get 1 or 2 that need a ceaser and only get £1250 for the calf then in real terms you’re only got £800 for it....a lot of work for £800

 

[Blaithin]

It’s ridiculous to think only large bw calves can become large weaning weight calves. Genetics are so focused on big calves staying big calves. Get a good, medium calf that hits the ground running on a cow that’s a good producer and there’s absolutely no reason your 80 lb bw calf can’t be a 600-700 lb weanling and onto a 900 lb yearling.

Beats fighting with big dumb bull calves to get them going so they can wean at hardly any bigger than the smaller calves that are good on their own from the start.

 

[muleman]

Trouble is if you get 1 or 2 that need a ceaser and only get £1250 for the calf then in real terms you’re only got £800 for it....a lot of work for £80

Trouble is if you get 1 or 2 that need a ceaser and only get £1250 for the calf then in real terms you’re only got £800 for it....a lot of work for £800

i realise that, £1250 without the caesar is the ideal, or better still,£2250

 

[GenuineRisk]

The whole point of a successful Blue is low birthweight calves that grow like maggots - you want to be be disappointed when they hit the ground then, two or three weeks later, find it hard to recognise the same calf! I would also guess that’s the same for any good bull of any breed.

This

Turned into this in exactly three months. NewPole Nuvita by Tilouis d’Atrive was Almeley Uvita, half sister to Easy and Chalky White. Naturally calved ex her recip dam. She was 37kg born

 

[CharcoalWally]

Trouble is if you get 1 or 2 that need a ceaser and only get £1250 for the calf then in real terms you’re only got £800 for it....a lot of work for £800

And an increased risk for £800. And a waste of precious antibiotics for £800. And the potential of shortening a cow's working life for £800.

 

[CharcoalWally]

It’s ridiculous to think only large bw calves can become large weaning weight calves.
.

Yes it is. But plenty of people still seem to think this.

 

[M-J-G]

To be fair to the Blue, when I tried them, they calved easily.

The down sides were low DLWG, a lack of premium on heifers for breeding, too soft for a winter outside, too lean.

Bull fertility seems to be a big issue for the breed. I've heard on more than one occassion that a BB bull has been more expensive than insure than other breeds.
Also, a guy I know who does quite a bit of fertility testing on bulls has spoken of blues being relatively poor.

But calving was no problem and temperament was very good. Credit where it's due.

 

[M-J-G]

It’s ridiculous to think only large bw calves can become large weaning weight calves. Genetics are so focused on big calves staying big calves. Get a good, medium calf that hits the ground running on a cow that’s a good producer and there’s absolutely no reason your 80 lb bw calf can’t be a 600-700 lb weanling and onto a 900 lb yearling.

Beats fighting with big dumb bull calves to get them going so they can wean at hardly any bigger than the smaller calves that are good on their own from the start.

Those big dumb heavy calves can be lighter at a week old than they were at birth.

 

[Lovegoodstock]

And an increased risk for £800. And a waste of precious antibiotics for £800. And the potential of shortening a cow's working life for £800.

It is indeed, but as pointed out by @muleman in his post,if you breed for top end showy type store prices with these types of genetics you will or can have 1/2 c sections from 100 cows. The one sold at 1250 this spring c sectioned wont look highly profitable less costs, but that leave 98 others, you didn't mention the one sold at 2500 at 8 months old where no c section or any antibiotic use, or the one at 2400 or 2350. Its about an average. Most wastage and ridiculous useage of AB in my area is the hobby farmers, that many ewes or cows are regularly on a 5 day course of ab along with metacam as they are not monitored. Well managed herds that stockmanship can select a suitable dam is key, in reply to @gone up the hill in what % is acceptable with c sections, who knows, will have a run now I know but last 400 dd cows no c sections. Worst ever was 50%, a bunch of pure british friesans in calf to a pure piemontese, used to have no hassle, birth weights of 30 odd kilo. Stumbled across some real narrow pelvic line of friesans. Dams are key in my opinion

 

[CharcoalWally]

It is indeed, but as pointed out by @muleman in his post,if you breed for top end showy type store prices with these types of genetics you will or can have 1/2 c sections from 100 cows.

1 or 2 per 100 cows? ???

My friend, you're a lightweight.
I know of several people that are having considerably more than 1 or 2 per their 100 cows in pursuit of these "top end showy types."

Once again, animals suffer at the hands of human vanity.

And there's not very many that ever make £2000.

 

[Blaithin]

Those big dumb heavy calves can be lighter at a week old than they were at birth.

Especially when they’re dead and the dogs eaten the ass out of them.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Especially when they’re dead and the dogs eaten the ass out of them.

It seems risks and benefits are different depending on end market - really interesting what you say about the black cattle market up there.

As you know my nighttime job is to hang cattle on the chain at slaughter, it is very interesting to build a picture of what is out there and what shape and weight they are at 20 odd months of age - I suspect the ones "the dog's eaten the ass out of" don't get that far

Obviously all pasture fed but the weight range is quite interesting - you can see who planned to kill cattle in May and who was forced to, anyway.
Here the continental types "in general" are not as round as the native types "in general" and you would be stretched to find much of a pattern in finished weights at all - what is comforting is our own cattle look good compared to "the district average" which is a big district in real terms.

However I do appreciate that the store ring is a much different thing as a big muscly animal will sell better than a small plain animal - over here you would just buy 2 plain ones and make more money at the finish - exactly why I will likely evolve to be a cull ewe fattener from a store lamb finisher.... more money in the job, halve the loss risk, ewes can eat more faster to compete with the cattle on a new break.

Sorry if anyone was upset by use of the term "hobby farmer" - I am one of them, and am not offended, but I was meaning the lifestyle block type with 3 belted galloways all with dewlaps in summer and then stand around a bale of 'conserved roadside' in winter, lose the fat, calving time ends in tears as a result harder when you only have a handful of stock to absorb losses, especially when you repeat the mistakes

 

[CharcoalWally]

Everyone here says the same. Can’t tell the difference once the hide is off. But the black angus marketers did their job. The premium was for black and the buyers like the black animals. Been so long now it’s just an adaption of the eye and mind set. Reds look fancy but blacks are the consistent money ones. And solid. Don’t have a broken pattern and perform better, you’ll still be worth less than a solid colour!

This is an interesting post @Blaithin . Do farmers all over the world buy on colour?

Is it rooted in some indicator of a commercial working or is it purely some form of a personal preference?

No country would have been more in thrall of a preference for a black hide on a beast than we were here in Scotland in the 50's and 60's . If it was black that was as far as we looked.

Commercial reality and financial starvation of the family farm changed all that in the 70's and suddenly Scots were buying white cattle, red cattle, yellow cattle. Sudden economics mattered rather than the black skin, and it stayed that way until the inception of the Native Breed Premium Schemes in the 90's to prop up the once mighty black cattle and save them from extinction.

Farmers favouring cash over colour? Who'd have thought it ???

 

[Kiwi Pete]

1 or 2 per 100 cows? ???

My friend, you're a lightweight.
I know of several people that are having considerably more than 1 or 2 per their 100 cows in pursuit of these "top end showy types."

Once again, animals suffer at the hands of human vanity.

And there's not very many that ever make £2000.

Surely 10% assisted calving is acceptable - farmers will happily plough a tenth of their grass each year in order to put new grass in with no qualms, what is the difference?
Having cows that just spit out cheap calves is surely "being tight and lazy"?? just as having permanent grass can be "improved" with temporary grass - seems a shame not to spend some money whether it be the vet or the seedman?