Multiple C Sections

[exmoor dave]

Again most points I agree with you on, no qualms with use of metacam, when needed it is a drug that should be used regardless of cost, my issue and point was, that I obviously didn't make clear, was its too frequent usage down to stock neglect, then used as a must in aftercare, rather than care and attention of stock initially would have avoided this. Worryingly I do believe and know there is more than an odd herd that are not viewed between the afore mentioned hours, well in fact ignore my local experience, there has been a few posts in last year about calving assistance or bulls calving ease where more than a few members have said they have little problems so look at bedtime and then in morning, that to me is a concern.

It's like farming on two different planets!

You realise there's plenty of herds calving outside (we are right now) ?
Plenty folk will be calving actually out on the moor (ours are in pasture, but right on top the farm).

I hope you don't feel it's "neglect" that many of those cattle will be seen once a day.
We go back in the evening if something was close in the morning, but I'm sure you'd see its not practical night checking

 

[unlacedgecko]

It's like farming on two different planets!

You realise there's plenty of herds calving outside (we are right now) ?
Plenty folk will be calving actually out on the moor (ours are in pasture, but right on top the farm).

I hope you don't feel it's "neglect" that many of those cattle will be seen once a day.
We go back in the evening if something was close in the morning, but I'm sure you'd see its not practical night checking

Great reply @exmoor dave Having just finished outdoor lambing 600 maiden ewes this is what I was driving at.

How do you cope with tagging before 7 days?

 

[Henarar]

I have found that working with a fit herd of cows that it's rare for a cow not to be straight to her feet and start licking a calf's head.
Older slower cows with poor locomotion or cows that are tired due to a longer calving tend to be the ones that lay on after calving, or stand up and start licking a calf's arse because it's the first bit they come to.

Fresh active cows giving birth easily to sensible sized calves with plenty of vigour are very unlikely to have bother with a sac staying on a calf until it dies.

Martin now you have stopped posting about people using others accounts and things like ,,,,,'s on this thread I will pick up on one of your posts, if you have any information about the above I suggest you tell @JP1 as he has been moderating this thread as I would if I knew anything about such things and perhaps others like @Bury the Trash would do the same

Anyway back to the point we had a diagnosed problem with iodine deficiency a few years ago and at the same time we had a lot of trouble with calves being born in the bag and the bags seemed thick and a job to break, since solving the iodine problem the problem with calves in the bag and thick bags seems to have gone also the calves are far more lively which would no doubt help the situation and perhaps the cows are as well to a lesser extent, the two things may well not be connected and may be coincidence but I thought I would pick it up as it may help someone

 

[M-J-G]

Great discussion.

From the outside looking in, the requirement to tag and register within 7 days seems very onnerous and contributed to the high labour cost of cattle. It also seems to raise the risk to stockmen.

Do the posters feel there is any benefit from this?

It's easiest tagging along with debudding and ringing at a day old anyway. Not really a big job.

100 cows 2/3 calving in the first 3 weeks is only averaging 3 per day, adding up to about 10-15 min daily. Given peaks and troughs it' half an hour every 2 or 3 days, and half an hour to register once a week.

Bigger herds are proportionally less time spent per head, polled genetics further cut down time spent.

 

[Henarar]

How do you cope with tagging before 7 days?

is that new ? I thought it was longer than that for suck calves

 

[M-J-G]

Martin now you have stopped posting about people using others accounts and things like ,,,,,'s on this thread I will pick up on one of your posts, if you have any information about the above I suggest you tell @JP1 as he has been moderating this thread as I would if I knew anything about such things and perhaps others like @Bury the Trash would do the same

Anyway back to the point we had a diagnosed problem with iodine deficiency a few years ago and at the same time we had a lot of trouble with calves being born in the bag and the bags seemed thick and a job to break, since solving the iodine problem the problem with calves in the bag and thick bags seems to have gone also the calves are far more lively which would no doubt help the situation and perhaps the cows are as well to a lesser extent, the two things may well not be connected and may be coincidence but I thought I would pick it up as it may help someone

I'm intrigued as to why you'd feel a need to mention someone commenting on a member who's shown a dramatic improvement in punctuation to a somewhat reasonable level for one post, and then revert back afterwards.

If I have a reason to contact a moderator, I will do just that, I don't require the go ahead from anyone, including yourself. But I appreciate your advice and support on the matter, as I'm sure does @Bury the Trash

Your point about a deficiency ties in with what was said before, that if nutrition is good and animals are fit, birth sacs are unlikely to be an issue.

 

[Henarar]

If I have a reason to contact a moderator, I will do just that, I don't require the go ahead from anyone, including yourself. But I appreciate your advice and support on the matter, as I'm sure does @Bury the Trash

Thats ok any time

 

[CharcoalWally]

Great discussion.

From the outside looking in, the requirement to tag and register within 7 days seems very onnerous and contributed to the high labour cost of cattle. It also seems to raise the risk to stockmen.

Do the posters feel there is any benefit from this?

This point will divide suckler farmers as much as the calving issue does.

I will try and get as many of my calves tagged within the first day if I can, but it isn't always possible so it doesn't necessarily happen for every calf.

Docile, well handled cows used to a handler at close contact massively reduce the risk to the stock person anyway, and that goes for all tasks, not just calving, but it was noticeable when the BCMS introduced a tagging derogation for cows that are considered a danger to their handler.

That took many years to be introduced however, and I wonder how many farmers got hurt quietly under the radar by attempting to stay within the legality of the legislation.

Whether tagging calves that young brings any benefit is highly debateable.

 

[exmoor dave]

Great reply @exmoor dave Having just finished outdoor lambing 600 maiden ewes this is what I was driving at.

How do you cope with tagging before 7 days?

Get tags in and ring bulls as close to birth as possible, before they can run!

Hereford cows are generally pretty good but we have some angus cows and some with blonde blood in them (& horns!) Who are abit more tricky!

Big difference between hereford and angus calf's, Herefords stay calm and don't bellow so mums stay calm.

Angus calves screech like hell so the mums wind up!

 

[tinsheet]

Get tags in and ring bulls as close to birth as possible, before they can run!

Hereford cows are generally pretty good but we have some angus cows and some with blonde blood in them (& horns!) Who are abit more tricky!

Big difference between hereford and angus calf's, Herefords stay calm and don't bellow so mums stay calm.

Angus calves screech like hell so the mums wind up!

Hereford calves, catch em Sat down tags ring, leave em 9 times out of 10 they stay Sat down, Angus on the other hand, had a full on Ruck with a 6 hr old one last week ended up with 6 cows stood around me wrestling with the calf all good fun.

 

[Blaithin]

Great reply @exmoor dave Having just finished outdoor lambing 600 maiden ewes this is what I was driving at.

How do you cope with tagging before 7 days?

Easier to tag them before seven days than after. Harder to catch the little barstewards then. Tag and record as you go. Calving out 650 head with fairly decent bull power and we never got above more than 25 calves a day. Fairly easy to keep up with. Go tagging morning and evening or if you’re there when they drop.

Any who’s moms want to eat you or are missed for whatever reason are usually grabbed at processing to go out to pasture. A bigger fight then to be sure, but possible when it’s only the odd one or two.

 

[Highland Mule]

is that new ? I thought it was longer than that for suck calves

20 days for beef cattle in Scotland. I generally tag mine within a day or two, and ring any bulls at the same time, plus paste the horns. I've found this year that if I take the lambing trailer behind the quad, I can take the calf into the trailer with myself and am then safe from any enthusiastic mothering attention.

 

[Lovegoodstock]

@Lovegoodstock, 20% is quite a lot, I would find it very rare for a cow to calve between 12 and 5am if they are fed at tea time and left in the dark. Most years sees 2 or 3 out of 120.

I'd give a check on the phone if I expected that rare something to calve. I don't have an issue with leaving a quiet shed at midnight and seeing them again at 5 or half past if I'm not expecting a calf.

@GenuineRisk I have found that working with a fit herd of cows that it's rare for a cow not to be straight to her feet and start licking a calf's head.
Older slower cows with poor locomotion or cows that are tired due to a longer calving tend to be the ones that lay on after calving, or stand up and start licking a calf's arse because it's the first bit they come to.

Fresh active cows giving birth easily to sensible sized calves with plenty of vigour are very unlikely to have bother with a sac staying on a calf until it dies.
Outwintered cows tend to have an advantage there, as they tend to be a lot fitter than those who are not walking around as much due to being in sheds.

Each has their own way or working and I too am a not on my watch type (as anyone who knows me will vouch for) I do however prefer to adapt and craft the system to as close to what suits me and allow me to balance workloads as much as possible.

I can see your point with younger fitter cows and licking the sac, but lambing ewe lambs I come across odd ones missing one, which in all honesty is a bonus but can happen . Ones close to calving are on hay, normally 6 to 20 in yard and food in front of them so no experience of tea time feeding, but as you say horses for courses, for my own reasons I don't need a great deal of sleep, but also generally I don't want to be working at 4/5 o clock, so what suits one doesn't suit all