Muriate of Potash, not only a waste of money...

[C.J]

K is a cation, hence it binds clay colloids, however it doesn't flocculate soil like ca, it makes cement, we have acres of the stuff.

Cl sterilises soil life, I forget the numbers but it's only a few hundred pounds per acre in one go to deliver enough cl to kill all life.

Crops draw k from the air, if you don't remove stover the levels should rise in time supposing it isn't leaching too fast to keep up.

Or so I'm led to believe

Matt

So what percentage of air is Potassium ?

 

[DrWazzock]

Probably explains why I can't get my tates clean. Clay + MOP = cement that hards like a ceramic glaze when dry.

They definitely used MOP to harden up runway subsoils during the war. Still searching for where I saw the evidence.

 

[matttargett4]

We have a dairy on clay soils, we import huge amounts of k in feedstuffs, we continue to raise our k levels, the soil gets harder and harder, we have to increase the intensity of our tillage, our production decreases, the docks grow like crazy, wheat won't stand up maize is covered in black spots which look like anthracnose, ph is rising, yet conventional wisdom soil indexes and ideas about ph can't explain this, anybody who has studied albrecht or reams will get what I'm saying, I'd love to be in a position to need to buy k fert.

On another subject we can't raise p levels, even though the manure is the ultimate soluble form, I hope weare sitting on a lot of tricalcium phosphate.

Still looking for the reference on k from air, it's definitely in mainline farming for century twenty one, but looking for something a little more internet easy.

Matt

 

[SilliamWhale]

K is a cation, hence it binds clay colloids, however it doesn't flocculate soil like ca, it makes cement, we have acres of the stuff.

Cl sterilises soil life, I forget the numbers but it's only a few hundred pounds per acre in one go to deliver enough cl to kill all life.

Crops draw k from the air, if you don't remove stover the levels should rise in time supposing it isn't leaching too fast to keep up.

Or so I'm led to believe

Matt

You have not appreciated the difference between Chloride and Chlorine

 

[SilliamWhale]

We have a dairy on clay soils, we import huge amounts of k in feedstuffs, we continue to raise our k levels, the soil gets harder and harder, we have to increase the intensity of our tillage, our production decreases, the docks grow like crazy, wheat won't stand up maize is covered in black spots which look like anthracnose, ph is rising, yet conventional wisdom soil indexes and ideas about ph can't explain this, anybody who has studied albrecht or reams will get what I'm saying, I'd love to be in a position to need to buy k fert.

On another subject we can't raise p levels, even though the manure is the ultimate soluble form, I hope weare sitting on a lot of tricalcium phosphate.

Still looking for the reference on k from air, it's definitely in mainline farming for century twenty one, but looking for something a little more internet easy.

Matt

If you are high in K from manure why don't you dispose of your K elsewhere? Will nobody take it?

 

[matttargett4]

There are 800 dairies in Somerset and quite a number of beef units, I am undertaking some trials with gypsum and limestone to prove what in talking about. We also need the manure to maintain on levels, we remove everything for fodder or bedding, roots alone simply won't do it. If you would like some sop feel free to catch the water from my ditch!

I was standing in a patch of nettles earlier looking for my beagle when I noticed the sponginess of soil, did a bit of research on return, I think it could be a promising cover crop.

 

[Brisel]

How do they get potash into Fibrophos? What form is it in? It's a very good source of calcium, phosphate, magnesium & trace elements but I was under the impression that fresh chicken muck didn't have much K in it.

 

[SilliamWhale]

K is a cation, hence it binds clay colloids, however it doesn't flocculate soil like ca, it makes cement, we have acres of the stuff.

Cl sterilises soil life, I forget the numbers but it's only a few hundred pounds per acre in one go to deliver enough cl to kill all life.

Crops draw k from the air, if you don't remove stover the levels should rise in time supposing it isn't leaching too fast to keep up.

Or so I'm led to believe

Matt

I don't think this is the case. Where can I learn more about this?

 

[C.J]

I don't think this is the case. Where can I learn more about this?

I have already Queried this statement.

I think Matt is confusing K with Nitrogen which is 78%(I.I.R.C) of air

 

[Brisel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_Earth

No K mentioned...

 

[SilliamWhale]

We have a dairy on clay soils, we import huge amounts of k in feedstuffs, we continue to raise our k levels, the soil gets harder and harder, we have to increase the intensity of our tillage, our production decreases, the docks grow like crazy, wheat won't stand up maize is covered in black spots which look like anthracnose, ph is rising, yet conventional wisdom soil indexes and ideas about ph can't explain this, anybody who has studied albrecht or reams will get what I'm saying, I'd love to be in a position to need to buy k fert.

On another subject we can't raise p levels, even though the manure is the ultimate soluble form, I hope weare sitting on a lot of tricalcium phosphate.

Still looking for the reference on k from air, it's definitely in mainline farming for century twenty one, but looking for something a little more internet easy.

Matt

Are you very short of calcium? Does a soil analyis say you are short on Calcium in absolute terms?

Re: Docks - what type of grazing patterns to do you use? Rotational short grass, how much N per annum?

What do you mean by wheat won't stand up?

 

[SilliamWhale]

I have already Queried this statement.

I think Matt is confusing K with Nitrogen which is 78%(I.I.R.C) of air

I think on second read he mentioned that it was in Dan Skow's book. I haven't read it but it does appear its based on Carey Reams (a vet) and Albrecht. i'm interested to hear more but I'm often a bit cautious of a lot of Acres USA publications, not saying they are complete nonsense by any stretch but they sometimes get a bit vague at really important points. Mr Skow was a vet so I wonder why that made him write a book on soil science?


Need to know more please!

Any chance of putting an NRM or similar soil test result of a typical field of yours?

 

[Brisel]

Are you very short of calcium? Does a soil analyis say you are short on Calcium in absolute terms?

Re: Docks - what type of grazing patterns to do you use? Rotational short grass, how much N per annum?

What do you mean by wheat won't stand up?

Tissue test results would be useful too.

 

[Dan Powell]

We have a dairy on clay soils, we import huge amounts of k in feedstuffs, we continue to raise our k levels

Stop importing feed then and concentrate on growing your own? Get your milk from the grass...? Surely your potash levels will fall as the stuff leaches, unless you're on one of these potassium releasing clays?

 

[matttargett4]

Sorry to have caused a stir, genuinely not intended.

Yes, I have read dan skows book, along with halfadozen other various biological farming books and so far 2 volumes of albrecht.

I have also been taking soil advice from fhr farms, stewartville man and international ag labs.

I agree a lot of the acres USA stuff seems like the bnp, starts off sensible, gets out of hand.

Dan slow was qualified as a vet, he then went on to start international ag labs after meeting Carey reams, a farmers son and doctor, friends with Einstein.

Fhr is a fertilizer company and farm operation who were taught by reams and were friends with slow, they have added some reality to reams biological theory of ionization andproducesome incredible crop yields, Google Keith schlapkohl, he is one of their directors, once grew 40 t per acre maize silage, close to world record yields every year, and here is the bit that got me interested, regardless of the weather.

I recommend everyone interested in soil give reams work a look, I have no idea if it is accurate or not, although the results are interesting but it provides an answer for nearly every question ever raised on this forum, for a starter it actually explains the process by which plants grow, not they just sort of do when the sun comes out!

I'm going into some fields ale trials under the guidance of fhr and I would be happy to talk more about it if anybody is interested.

To answer a few other comments, why dont we stop importing concentrates and grow are own, we endeavour to grow everything we can but that is bit like me saying to an arable farmer legumes produce nitrogen what do you need nitram for, it's a bit more complicated than it first looks is the answer.

We aren't very short of calcium, although this depends where you set your goalposts, for the reams method we are on the low end of acceptable at around 2000 lbs per acre available, grazing we basically don't do with milking cows, majority of acres will be cut 3 times, some cut twice grazed with young stock. Wheat will stand up to a point, we can run a 4 t average most years on the dairy land, often with no nitrogen at all, this I can't explain my only thought is salts may be acting as the electrolyte in the soil but our base line conductivity is quite low.
Grass typically will get 100 kg of n per year and some manure depending on where they are, weather etc.
Chicken muck should be roughly 50 50 p and k, depends on if it has bedding with it, in general a stover or woody product has more k than p, a grain product has more p than k.

Matt

 

[SilliamWhale]

Sorry to have caused a stir, genuinely not intended.

Yes, I have read dan skows book, along with halfadozen other various biological farming books and so far 2 volumes of albrecht.

I have also been taking soil advice from fhr farms, stewartville man and international ag labs.

I agree a lot of the acres USA stuff seems like the bnp, starts off sensible, gets out of hand.

Dan slow was qualified as a vet, he then went on to start international ag labs after meeting Carey reams, a farmers son and doctor, friends with Einstein.

Fhr is a fertilizer company and farm operation who were taught by reams and were friends with slow, they have added some reality to reams biological theory of ionization andproducesome incredible crop yields, Google Keith schlapkohl, he is one of their directors, once grew 40 t per acre maize silage, close to world record yields every year, and here is the bit that got me interested, regardless of the weather.

I recommend everyone interested in soil give reams work a look, I have no idea if it is accurate or not, although the results are interesting but it provides an answer for nearly every question ever raised on this forum, for a starter it actually explains the process by which plants grow, not they just sort of do when the sun comes out!

I'm going into some fields ale trials under the guidance of fhr and I would be happy to talk more about it if anybody is interested.

To answer a few other comments, why dont we stop importing concentrates and grow are own, we endeavour to grow everything we can but that is bit like me saying to an arable farmer legumes produce nitrogen what do you need nitram for, it's a bit more complicated than it first looks is the answer.

We aren't very short of calcium, although this depends where you set your goalposts, for the reams method we are on the low end of acceptable at around 2000 lbs per acre available, grazing we basically don't do with milking cows, majority of acres will be cut 3 times, some cut twice grazed with young stock. Wheat will stand up to a point, we can run a 4 t average most years on the dairy land, often with no nitrogen at all, this I can't explain my only thought is salts may be acting as the electrolyte in the soil but our base line conductivity is quite low.
Grass typically will get 100 kg of n per year and some manure depending on where they are, weather etc.
Chicken muck should be roughly 50 50 p and k, depends on if it has bedding with it, in general a stover or woody product has more k than p, a grain product has more p than k.

Matt

I wouldn't say you've caused too much of stir - most of us like a discussion here . Only one bloke on here gets shirty all the time but he seems to have calmed down this week.

I'm interested to hear more about what you are doing, I will say I'm in general cautious on Reams as I am on any one person/evidence (http://www.skepdic.com/reams.html) but I completely accept that there is a lot more we don't know than we do know and sometimes just because science tells us something it doesn't mean its always right ie it depends sometimes on the scientific approach.

It sounds to me though that the sheer amount of imported stuff from your farm is raising fertility levels and causing an excess? Maybe I'm wrong in this presumption?

 

[York]

I wouldn't say you've caused too much of stir - most of us like a discussion here . Only one bloke on here gets shirty all the time but he seems to have calmed down this week.

I'm interested to hear more about what you are doing, I will say I'm in general cautious on Reams as I am on any one person/evidence (http://www.skepdic.com/reams.html) but I completely accept that there is a lot more we don't know than we do know and sometimes just because science tells us something it doesn't mean its always right ie it depends sometimes on the scientific approach.

It sounds to me though that the sheer amount of imported stuff from your farm is raising fertility levels and causing an excess? Maybe I'm wrong in this presumption?

here he goes once more, my friend, H...yW...y,
Interesting comment which helped to enlighten the topic.
York-Th.

 

[SilliamWhale]

tis true though...

 

[matttargett4]

Don't worry I'm also sceptical of all things new to an extent, I have read that sceptic link before, although I think you can put a good or bad spin on anything or anybody if you pick certain things about them.

I have a book called the perfect soil or something like that, it explains the difference between reams and albrecht very well, there's actually little difference in their view on soils, only why you need different things, calcium is what most elements in the soil react with to make the energy which makes things grow, hence it is the dominant cation, as in albrecht theory, phosphate is also held in high regard as it is supposed to govern the sugar content of the produce, in grass crops p is aimed to be double k. It also introduces the concept that a crop of balanced nutrition will resist attack from pests and diseases.

One of the main things we want do with some maize in a trial is to shorten the time to maturity, reams pioneers the idea of growth energy and reproductive energy, you start the season with growth energy and switch to reproductive at flowering, this can be manipulated using the correct balance of different frets and foliar sprays to shorten the growing time and maintain yield, obvious benefits being not buggering the ground up when your still cutting in November, getting a cover crop behind it etc.

It all sounds too good to be true, maybe it is, this time next yr I will know a lot more.

I found a link to the independent soils website somewhere on here from mega phos, the phosphite is something fhr use a lot, I believe it triggers the plants defense mechanism, don't they use it for roses?

Does anybody use much stuff from them? What do you think?

Matt

 

[SilliamWhale]

Don't worry I'm also sceptical of all things new to an extent, I have read that sceptic link before, although I think you can put a good or bad spin on anything or anybody if you pick certain things about them.

I have a book called the perfect soil or something like that, it explains the difference between reams and albrecht very well, there's actually little difference in their view on soils, only why you need different things, calcium is what most elements in the soil react with to make the energy which makes things grow, hence it is the dominant cation, as in albrecht theory, phosphate is also held in high regard as it is supposed to govern the sugar content of the produce, in grass crops p is aimed to be double k. It also introduces the concept that a crop of balanced nutrition will resist attack from pests and diseases.

One of the main things we want do with some maize in a trial is to shorten the time to maturity, reams pioneers the idea of growth energy and reproductive energy, you start the season with growth energy and switch to reproductive at flowering, this can be manipulated using the correct balance of different frets and foliar sprays to shorten the growing time and maintain yield, obvious benefits being not buggering the ground up when your still cutting in November, getting a cover crop behind it etc.

It all sounds too good to be true, maybe it is, this time next yr I will know a lot more.

I found a link to the independent soils website somewhere on here from mega phos, the phosphite is something fhr use a lot, I believe it triggers the plants defense mechanism, don't they use it for roses?

Does anybody use much stuff from them? What do you think?

Matt

Is that "Perfect Soil" book actually the "Ideal Soil" by Micheal Astera? If so I have read it and enjoyed it. Well written but it does have a couple of caveats, not least that Astera is not a soil scientist or have much scientific qualifiaction. Does that make his book irrelavent? No, but it does mean one should have a different critique of the data imho. If I remember correctly it was quite good at explaining the dogma of some of the organic pioneers.

But in terms of what you have written I'm not quite sure I understand the idea that calcium is the "dominant" cation. Need to read up some more on that. I think yes a balanced nutrition is agreeable but I have never seen anything particularly startling that says we should be balancing nutrition according to Base Cation Saturation Ratio data - have you seen any that you can point me to? My own view is liebigs barrel is still a reasonable way to view things but agree there is more to learn.

Will watch with interest the reproductive/ growth energy experiment