Muriate of Potash, not only a waste of money...

[matttargett4]

I think it may have been that book yes, I totally understand what you are saying about the author, it's very hard to really know and we must form our own opinions based on what we find works on our own farms, I think what Jill Clapperton says is true, if humus is building in your soil you can't be far wrong and production will increase whatever system you operate, I'd love to try farming some 5 percent on soil to see how it works!

I think your dead on about the barrel, but I think what is more of a debate is what level the top of the barrel is for each nutrient and how to improve it.

If I was an arable farmer I'm not sure if I'd be that bothered about balancing soil, grain yields for us at least are very slowly improving and it seems at least in the early stages the benefits will be in quality based more than quantity, in the volume relating to animal health and nutrition there is lots of discussion about experiments with rabbits and the effects on them that soil treatments have, I recall rabbits starving to death faster when fed junk food than when fed nothing, as a livestock farmer this is fascinating I find.

 

[Gilchro]

Matt,
I am in the same camp as you. I see many farms that have made "good" forage and yet the cattle just don't perform, no matter what you throw at them until you throw the analysis out and start again.
I am of firm belief that where you are heading has massive opportunity for the industry. My own light-bulb moment to start exploring this came on the day that I realised that minerals are routinely fed to cattle constantly. Why? If the soil the food came from was in good order, this would be unnecessary.
We have much to learn. Not sure if Reams and Albrecht are correct but like you I see the merit in the arguments put forward and it does make sense (whether the correct sense or not.........)
I would like to think that targeting soil health will bring healthier forages/h.g. feeds and the cattle will reward you with the performance

 

[SilliamWhale]

Matt,
I am in the same camp as you. I see many farms that have made "good" forage and yet the cattle just don't perform, no matter what you throw at them until you throw the analysis out and start again.
I am of firm belief that where you are heading has massive opportunity for the industry. My own light-bulb moment to start exploring this came on the day that I realised that minerals are routinely fed to cattle constantly. Why? If the soil the food came from was in good order, this would be unnecessary.
We have much to learn. Not sure if Reams and Albrecht are correct but like you I see the merit in the arguments put forward and it does make sense (whether the correct sense or not.........)
I would like to think that targeting soil health will bring healthier forages/h.g. feeds and the cattle will reward you with the performance

What would the leaf analysis of that "good" forage reveal? I think we would all agree that "good" grass is no way stuff with lashings of AN and a lack of other nutrients. I definitely think can easily be an excess of protein and N in forage (or in Matt's case maybe K) but equally I still think soil and then leaf analysis by a traditional soil lab like NRM can lead you to where you need to be to start with at least. @Gilchro - are you saying the forage analysis of that "good" grass showed everything was good but still the animals underperformed?

That doesn't mean i'm saying I'm anti biological agriculture I'm completely 100% into it, I think its easy to observe that a lot of animals get excessive protein and not enough energy.

 

[Gilchro]

@SilliamWhale Yup, seen too many forage analysis that are, for want of a better term, rubbish. Be that high or low.
I am waiting on a customer getting in to a pit of silage treated with a preservative salt.
All three cuts are in the same pit.
2nd cut was treated with the salts/acid
Fresh grass samples were taken at cutting.
When the pit was opened to put 3rd in, 2nd was sampled and showed very little deviation from initial grass.
Currently working through 1st to get to 2nd cut. I really want to see what is going to happen to the milk as if it does feed as analysis (was high 11 ME and 18% CP) that will be pretty exciting.
The farmer is keen on soil health and has been doing a lot with gypsum and lime on his heavy ground.
Admittedly, I have little knowledge at times as to how the grass has been treated pre silage pit but often would be chock full of AN.
I have been dropping hints with several customers about Brix readings as I think there may be a lot to be shown from them in fresh grass/grazing but nobody has as yet taken me up on the idea.
Not so sure about the excess of protein in forage. Travelling the length and breadth of Scotland, I would say you see more pits/bales of twigs at 9 & 10% protein than rocket fuel at 16%. Would far rather deal with 16%. Much cheaper to slow it down and utilise it than to try and polish a turd with the 9ME/10%CP nonsense

 

[Richard III]

Andre Voisin is well worth a read, if you are interested in the effects of nutrient balance on livestock. He made some brilliant observations, some of which have still not been picked up on properly by modern science IMHO.

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010106voisin/010106gttoc.html

Potassium/sodium balance is particularly important in my experience.

 

[Gilchro]

@Richard III not sure about the weblink. Ended up looking at something suggesting Bayer were all warm and fuzzy about bees

 

[Richard III]

@Richard III not sure about the weblink. Ended up looking at something suggesting Bayer were all warm and fuzzy about bees

Sorry, I new I shouldn't have tried copy and pasting on my Ipad Mini.

I have edited the link.

 

[Gilchro]

Sorry, I new I shouldn't have tried copy and pasting on my Ipad Mini.

I have edited the link.

Looks much more up my avenue!!!
Thank you

 

[SilliamWhale]

@SilliamWhale Yup, seen too many forage analysis that are, for want of a better term, rubbish. Be that high or low.
I am waiting on a customer getting in to a pit of silage treated with a preservative salt.
All three cuts are in the same pit.
2nd cut was treated with the salts/acid
Fresh grass samples were taken at cutting.
When the pit was opened to put 3rd in, 2nd was sampled and showed very little deviation from initial grass.
Currently working through 1st to get to 2nd cut. I really want to see what is going to happen to the milk as if it does feed as analysis (was high 11 ME and 18% CP) that will be pretty exciting.
The farmer is keen on soil health and has been doing a lot with gypsum and lime on his heavy ground.
Admittedly, I have little knowledge at times as to how the grass has been treated pre silage pit but often would be chock full of AN.
I have been dropping hints with several customers about Brix readings as I think there may be a lot to be shown from them in fresh grass/grazing but nobody has as yet taken me up on the idea.
Not so sure about the excess of protein in forage. Travelling the length and breadth of Scotland, I would say you see more pits/bales of twigs at 9 & 10% protein than rocket fuel at 16%. Would far rather deal with 16%. Much cheaper to slow it down and utilise it than to try and polish a turd with the 9ME/10%CP nonsense

Are you saying that the forage analysis shows up as adequate but the grass itself is poor? ie the paper sheet from the forage analysis is giving you no clues at all as to why the forage is rubbish. I'd be surprised if nothing is coming up on the analysis if its as bad a forage as you say.

What salt? Is it a brand name product?

Gypsum and Lime on his ground? Presumably he is putting on lime with a decent NV because his ph is low? Presumably he is putting on Gypsum because he feels he is very low in both calcium and sulphur? I'm kind of surprised he is putting both on, unless he has hugely varied soil types?

The brix test is interesting and I've played about but I'm not completely convinced that knowing what the soluble sugars tells me about the plant and its health (or yield, or ££ for me) I can see why a grape grower likes it though!

 

[SilliamWhale]

Andre Voisin is well worth a read, if you are interested in the effects of nutrient balance on livestock. He made some brilliant observations, some of which have still not been picked up on properly by modern science IMHO.

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010106voisin/010106gttoc.html

Potassium/sodium balance is particularly important in my experience.

Interesting. I guess because plants hardly use sodium we overlook it in the field but it is needed for the beast and it is lacking from its diet? In natural systems there would have been salt licks that are no longer accessible maybe?

 

[Richard III]

Interesting. I guess because plants hardly use sodium we overlook it in the field but it is needed for the beast and it is lacking from its diet? In natural systems there would have been salt licks that are no longer accessible maybe?

When sodium is short, the plant takes up extra potassium, this appears to be no problem to the plant but it can be to the animal eating the forage. I had quite a severe problem due to this, brought about by applying my manure to arable land and using NPK fertilizers on the silage ground. Strangely adding salt to the diet did not solve the problem but adding salt to the soil did. Most people are adding salt to grassland without realising it from the animals manure being returned, it is when potash is applied on it's own that thinks start to go out of line. My milking herd had severe problems with milk fever and acidosis that no one could explain, applying salt to the land solved both problems. I presume the acidosis was caused by the cow needing to produce large amounts of sodium bicarbonate to buffer the rumen.

 

[matttargett4]

Solid gold discussion

Many points to answer, I will forget some for sure

I'm very interested to hear someone else keeping an eye on brix, the reams method kind of pushes you into it, I think it's either genius or complete crap, in theory it's genius, reams taught that using high quality soft rock phosphate and phosphoric acid foliars would increase sugar content, I'm half way there and the phosphoric acid is in the chemical store, if I can tie that to an increase in brix and sugar content in the spring that will be lightbulb stuff. My other theory is that for some odd reason the phosphate increases the TSS of the plant sap but has no effect on quality, it is simply a coincidence, I'm on the fence.

I passed over nearly 4500 acres ona chopper this yr, I had the refracts enter with me for a good bit of it, fresh grass ranged 5 to 12 depending stage of wilt, growing maize was 4 to 6, reams suggests we need to double these values as a minimum, if it's possible and if it is related to sugar content that's big potential.

I'm with earlier comments on silage analysis, we only get the for farm assurance, we never read them, we sell nearly 11,000 litres per cow on twice per day milking, it's not because we wouldn't if they meant something.

The poison stuff looks interesting, bed time reading sorted for a few days.

I like what Richard mentioned about no one could explain the acidosis and milk fever but the salt cured the problem, everyone I speak to and mention that I am looking at soils and wondering about health problems looks at you like you're simple, we get on very well with milk fever but we have found we have to keep transition cows on a strict maize only diet, any grass and they fall over like dominoes, why? Grass silage is way high in potassium, maize is lower due to its growth stage at harvest, yet our farming model looks at this and say oohs grass needs loads of potassium then, put some more on.

I forget the exact wording but albrecht said something along the lines of every animal and plant exists for a battle to synthesize proteins from the soil and the soils ability to produce proteins is not as good now as it was before man got involved. He also makes observations about climate and soil type and their natural ability to produce proteins, apparently our soils are typically over weathered and support the growth of carbohydrate or wood better than protein whereas North Americas native prairie with lower rainfall is less weathered and more suited to protein production. I definitely agree with preferring to try to hold it in than polish a turd!

Matt

 

[Richard III]

My experience of potassium and sodium is that the ratio's are as important as the absolute amounts. Potassium can be just top side of normal and sodium just on the low side and you will have a problem because the ratio's are too far apart. An animal cannot regulate the amount of potassium or sodium that is absorbed from its feed and they are both absorbed in the same ratio's as present in the feed. Any excess is excreted and again the animal cannot select which to excrete, if there is excess potassium then sodium will also have to be excreted. It is therefore important to have the right ratio's of both in the soil. I don't think it is a wide spread problem but it can be very damaging when it is.

I don't buy into all the albrecht stuff, but it does tie in nicely with some of his ratio theories. Bottom line for me is use potash fertiliser with care around livestock.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Solid gold discussion

Many points to answer, I will forget some for sure

I'm very interested to hear someone else keeping an eye on brix, the reams method kind of pushes you into it, I think it's either genius or complete crap, in theory it's genius, reams taught that using high quality soft rock phosphate and phosphoric acid foliars would increase sugar content, I'm half way there and the phosphoric acid is in the chemical store, if I can tie that to an increase in brix and sugar content in the spring that will be lightbulb stuff. My other theory is that for some odd reason the phosphate increases the TSS of the plant sap but has no effect on quality, it is simply a coincidence, I'm on the fence.

I passed over nearly 4500 acres ona chopper this yr, I had the refracts enter with me for a good bit of it, fresh grass ranged 5 to 12 depending stage of wilt, growing maize was 4 to 6, reams suggests we need to double these values as a minimum, if it's possible and if it is related to sugar content that's big potential.

I'm with earlier comments on silage analysis, we only get the for farm assurance, we never read them, we sell nearly 11,000 litres per cow on twice per day milking, it's not because we wouldn't if they meant something.

The poison stuff looks interesting, bed time reading sorted for a few days.

I like what Richard mentioned about no one could explain the acidosis and milk fever but the salt cured the problem, everyone I speak to and mention that I am looking at soils and wondering about health problems looks at you like you're simple, we get on very well with milk fever but we have found we have to keep transition cows on a strict maize only diet, any grass and they fall over like dominoes, why? Grass silage is way high in potassium, maize is lower due to its growth stage at harvest, yet our farming model looks at this and say oohs grass needs loads of potassium then, put some more on.

I forget the exact wording but albrecht said something along the lines of every animal and plant exists for a battle to synthesize proteins from the soil and the soils ability to produce proteins is not as good now as it was before man got involved. He also makes observations about climate and soil type and their natural ability to produce proteins, apparently our soils are typically over weathered and support the growth of carbohydrate or wood better than protein whereas North Americas native prairie with lower rainfall is less weathered and more suited to protein production. I definitely agree with preferring to try to hold it in than polish a turd!

Matt

I can't see how it is either genuis or crap. Its basically testing a portion of plant carbohydrate ie its sugar. There are other aspects of carboyhdrate too. I do agree that sometimes energy is lacking in a lot of leafy grass silage/ grazed grass.

I can see how Mr Albrecht may say the soils ability to produce proteins is not as good now than before man got involved. It appeals to the idea that nature and biodiversity is greater than the sum of its parts. I think as forest is further up the climax/succession continuum that grass then it is likely that "lower" plants like grass are building C quicker than a forest. The priarie would have eventually got to forest I suppose, rainfall didn't help, or native americans keeping grazing animals on the move and the ice age wasn't that long before.

you will enjoy this if you can find it online somewhere:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00rrd87

 

[SilliamWhale]

Ta da! (ithink)

 

[Eltjo]

We have a dairy on clay soils, we import huge amounts of k in feedstuffs, we continue to raise our k levels, the soil gets harder and harder, we have to increase the intensity of our tillage, our production decreases, the docks grow like crazy, wheat won't stand up maize is covered in black spots which look like anthracnose, ph is rising, yet conventional wisdom soil indexes and ideas about ph can't explain this, anybody who has studied albrecht or reams will get what I'm saying, I'd love to be in a position to need to buy k fert.

On another subject we can't raise p levels, even though the manure is the ultimate soluble form, I hope weare sitting on a lot of tricalcium phosphate.

Still looking for the reference on k from air, it's definitely in mainline farming for century twenty one, but looking for something a little more internet easy.

Matt

Without a soil analysis we would be guessing. However, stalk strength is affected by Ca, K, Cu, B and Mn. A lack of Ca and too much K and Mg would harden your soils. Since you have dairy cows I would not wait too long to take a soil sample. If excess K is the problem, milkfever and death are a sure possibility.

 

[Eltjo]

When sodium is short, the plant takes up extra potassium, this appears to be no problem to the plant but it can be to the animal eating the forage. I had quite a severe problem due to this, brought about by applying my manure to arable land and using NPK fertilizers on the silage ground. Strangely adding salt to the diet did not solve the problem but adding salt to the soil did. Most people are adding salt to grassland without realising it from the animals manure being returned, it is when potash is applied on it's own that thinks start to go out of line. My milking herd had severe problems with milk fever and acidosis that no one could explain, applying salt to the land solved both problems. I presume the acidosis was caused by the cow needing to produce large amounts of sodium bicarbonate to buffer the rumen.

When soil K is too high applying Na will block soil K therefore lowering % K in forage. Milk fever is a sure sign of too much K. Actually not enough Ca and Mg in the forage because of the antagonistic effects of K. I would take soil samples of all your soils before planting another crop. You can than plant grain crops on high K/low Ca fields and select those fields with lower soil K levels for your grasses and forages.
Acidosis can occur when a cow eats a lot of high energy food (grains) and little fiber (grasses). As a result, the cow is not chewing its cud and not producing saliva which helps to buffer the rumen and maintain proper pH. It is a good idea for the cow to always have access to good quality hay. The cow will eat it when it starts to heat up inside the rumen.

 

[Eltjo]

My experience of potassium and sodium is that the ratio's are as important as the absolute amounts. Potassium can be just top side of normal and sodium just on the low side and you will have a problem because the ratio's are too far apart. An animal cannot regulate the amount of potassium or sodium that is absorbed from its feed and they are both absorbed in the same ratio's as present in the feed. Any excess is excreted and again the animal cannot select which to excrete, if there is excess potassium then sodium will also have to be excreted. It is therefore important to have the right ratio's of both in the soil. I don't think it is a wide spread problem but it can be very damaging when it is.

I don't buy into all the albrecht stuff, but it does tie in nicely with some of his ratio theories. Bottom line for me is use potash fertiliser with care around livestock.

I agree that ratios are important however, we can't talk about K and Na without talking about Ca and Mg as well. Both Albrecht and Reams had Ca at the top of the list. Albrecht said Ca is the King of all nutrients. If you don't have enough Ca and Mg, be very careful with K no matter if it is from manure of fertilizer.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I know I may sound like a stuck record but....

I can that there changes in nutrient ratios can have an affect of altering one nutrient to another I don't see why you have to invoke the (BCSR) ratio theory, this can be just as well explained (and backed up) with quantity theory.

http://www.agknowledge.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Fertiliser-Review-Issue-26.pdf - a fairly thorough explanation of the way they test the ratio and why there are some issues with it.

I think the high K in the OP's soils (would like to see a soil test result up here from him) is generally explained by the import of a lot of nutrients from off farm which are all spread on farm after. This is not a criticism but it seems to adding to the K load pf the soil.

 

[Eltjo]

I know I may sound like a stuck record but....

I can that there changes in nutrient ratios can have an affect of altering one nutrient to another I don't see why you have to invoke the (BCSR) ratio theory, this can be just as well explained (and backed up) with quantity theory.

http://www.agknowledge.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Fertiliser-Review-Issue-26.pdf - a fairly thorough explanation of the way they test the ratio and why there are some issues with it.

I think the high K in the OP's soils (would like to see a soil test result up here from him) is generally explained by the import of a lot of nutrients from off farm which are all spread on farm after. This is not a criticism but it seems to adding to the K load pf the soil.

I know there is some opposition to the base saturation method but using the Albrecht system with Neal Kinsey has served me well over the past 20 years in North America and Europe. That does not mean all problems are solved. Soil nutrients are not the be all and end all. I am always open to learn more about soil science and crop production.
When someone does want to follow the base saturation method use Neal Kinsey and PAL (Perry Agr. Labs). However, follow the rest of the recommendations as well. The trouble with research is that they only look at 1 or 2 nutrients at a time. It takes many nutrients to maximize yield, and addressing only 1 or 2 of them while others are deficient, will likely not maximize yield.