N-Fix

[Andy Howard]

http://www.no-tillfarmer.com/pages/News---Technology-Lets-Crops-Take-Ntrogen-From-The-Air.php

Interesting to see if this makes it into the market place. If it does then maybe people who have shares in Yara might want to sell. I expect it will be priced to be only slightly cheaper though!

 

[Rob Holmes]

Dow agrosciences were showing it at Cereals this year, they were hoping for a launch next year

 

[Andy Howard]

Dow agrosciences were showing it at Cereals this year, they were hoping for a launch next year

N Fix or N Lock? Dow have given us some free N lock to try which slows down urease.

 

[Rob Holmes]

N Fix or N Lock? Dow have given us some free N lock to try which slows down urease.

Sorry, i got confused, i meant N lock

 

[Andy Howard]

They are trying to release N-fix in a couple of years and say it provides around 60% of crops needs

 

[Godber]

If this N-fixing ever comes about it will be at the expense of yield I would have thought. There is only so much energy from the sun per acre.You won't get something for nothing.

 

[Feldspar]

The fact that this approach avoids GM means that it can slip into the market place much easier and quicker. Even the product is priced only slightly cheaper than artificial N there will nevertheless be a huge wider saving to society as the article points out. Most exciting thing I've read in quite some time.

I think this is one of the original papers back in 2003:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1024106605806

And this the much more recent patent application:

http://www.google.co.uk/patents?hl=en&lr=&vid=USPAT8137665&id=HYcJAgAAEBAJ&oi=fnd&dq=nitrogen fixing bacteria nottingham&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q=nitrogen fixing bacteria nottingham&f=false

 

[Feldspar]

If this N-fixing ever comes about it will be at the expense of yield I would have thought. There is only so much energy from the sun per acre.You won't get something for nothing.

I suppose it depends what these bacteria feed upon. If they are pinching sugars which the plant had a further use for then the plant may well suffer detrimental effects. If, however, these bacteria use what the plant would have otherwise released through its roots in the form of exudates then there might not be any negative effect.

 

[Feldspar]

Reading the patent application is really interesting. Skip the pictures and the wording is near the bottom. Looks like they hope that the bacteria will pass from one plant generation to another. That allows for the possibility of home saved seed with built-in N fixing.

 

[chaffcutter]

Today's Tele report says that the Prof and Notts Uni have formed company to 'commercialise the technology' and could become available in two to three years

 

[shakerator]

"Proven to work in a laboratory, field efficacy trials needed"

Does this not ring alarm bells? I.e. hydroponic research done in the absence of soil?

I would love to be be proved wrong, but grasses don't fix n for a reason.

Also very wary on universities going public on saving the world. Funding is tough to get these days


Reminds me of the claims on cellulosic biofuels saving the food vs fuel dichotomy....all lab proven....all spin off companies set up.....the problem was the manufacture of the microbes to turn the cellulose into usable fuel used just as much energy as production of 1st gen biofuels....

 

[Clive]

I saw phosphate isolating bacteria a while ago

Issue with adding biology to soul is numbers - you need billions of the blighters per kg of soil and how can you achieve that ?

Science is sound, practical solution is the challenge

 

[Feldspar]

I saw phosphate isolating bacteria a while ago

Issue with adding biology to soul is numbers - you need billions of the blighters per kg of soil and how can you achieve that ?

Science is sound, practical solution is the challenge

Again, reading the patent application, they found that adding more bacteria actually produced worse results because of the concentration of growth hormones that were produced by the bacteria in the plant stopped being beneficial and began to cause deleterious effects. Numbers required for the optimum response were practicably doable from the looks of things.

 

[shakerator]

But in sterile conditions!

Those volumes of bacteria may become irrelevant when exposed to the soil bacterial universe....

If you have to produce more to predominate soil as Clive says then that will take energy and resources just the same as mining gas for N or acids and rock phosphate ?

 

[SilliamWhale]

"Proven to work in a laboratory, field efficacy trials needed"

Does this not ring alarm bells? I.e. hydroponic research done in the absence of soil?

I would love to be be proved wrong, but grasses don't fix n for a reason.

Also very wary on universities going public on saving the world. Funding is tough to get these days


Reminds me of the claims on cellulosic biofuels saving the food vs fuel dichotomy....all lab proven....all spin off companies set up.....the problem was the manufacture of the microbes to turn the cellulose into usable fuel used just as much energy as production of 1st gen biofuels....

This has got me thinking. Why do all plants not fix N? Is it because plants have a constant C vs N battle? The "reason" grasses don't fix N is what exactly?

I read a book once called the Alchemy of Air about Fritz Haber (v good book) and its premise that humankind is/was constantly short of N. But is this the case or more to do with the way we design our food systems? We in this country could grow wall to wall beans and miss out on needing N? - Why don't we? Do we really need wheat and barley apart from liking bread?

 

[Andy Howard]

This has got me thinking. Why do all plants not fix N? Is it because plants have a constant C vs N battle? The "reason" grasses don't fix N is what exactly?

I read a book once called the Alchemy of Air about Fritz Haber (v good book) and its premise that humankind is/was constantly short of N. But is this the case or more to do with the way we design our food systems? We in this country could grow wall to wall beans and miss out on needing N? - Why don't we? Do we really need wheat and barley apart from liking bread?

I think this is a fair point, are we short of N in general, mother nature seems to do fine without it or is it the fact that are farming systems are faulty and these technological developments are just papering over the cracks of faulty systems.
I think Shakerator is correct in being cautious over this, the difference I can see compared to other similar products is that these actually enter the cells of the plants.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I think this is a fair point, are we short of N in general, mother nature seems to do fine without it or is it the fact that are farming systems are faulty and these technological developments are just papering over the cracks of faulty systems.
I think Shakerator is correct in being cautious over this, the difference I can see compared to other similar products is that these actually enter the cells of the plants.

I guess because nature is essentially polyculture there is plenty of N fixing going on. Trees, bacteria, plants, lightning etc. all give N. And of course a major leakage in the farming system is poor use of urine. We are short of N in terms of shipping commodites we can sell around the world but from an alien landing on earth perspective maybe not. I've just confused myself...

I wonder if we could produce the same amount of edible biomass on farm in calorific terms without N? Not from organic farming perspective.

Ahh sunday mornings eh?..Continuous peas @Andy Howard?...

 

[shakerator]

I guess because nature is essentially polyculture there is plenty of N fixing going on. Trees, bacteria, plants, lightning etc. all give N. And of course a major leakage in the farming system is poor use of urine. We are short of N in terms of shipping commodites we can sell around the world but from an alien landing on earth perspective maybe not. I've just confused myself...

I wonder if we could produce the same amount of edible biomass on farm in calorific terms without N? Not from organic farming perspective.

Ahh sunday mornings eh?..Continuous peas @Andy Howard?...

yeh symbiotic use of N. some of our best grass margins harbour lots of natural vetch strains.


A question for "N fix":

it is well known a modest amount of N impedes nodulation in legumes. If this product is claiming reduced use (e.g. 40%) of N rather than total elimination of the requirement, where does this fit in terms of encouraging these fixation processes?

Same with P mycorrizi etc ......

Unless you change the food system we are limited by markets as to what is achievable

 

[agricontract]

We are doing a trial for it this year for agrivista might be able to just see a slight colour change in crop but will wait to see what the yield maps show