Princess Pooper
Member
- Location
- East Mids
rates set nationally in negotiation with CLA/NFU etc I believe
National Grid ........ backdated wayleaves
- Thread starter Treacle Sponge
- Start date
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
Domestic is only 12 months, business is up to 6 years for electric bills. We had fun with a power company-their cock-ups went back 11 years, but they could only bill us for 6.
Yes, I'd take 6 years £££ *and* an apology.
So a big estate like the ones round here with 15-20,000 acres are gonna get a fair draw on wayleaves.
- Location
- Yorkshire
Thanks for that - we're going to do some pole counting too. A pole-in-a-hedge is worth less than a pole in ploughing, which is worth more than a pole in the grass.
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
In summary:
The land owner gets rent for each pole, the land occupier gets compensation for inconvenience. Owner occupiers get both. There are 3 rates for each item of equipment, "hedge" where it is not in a field, "pasture" for poles in grassland and "arable" where you have to cultivate round the pole or lose crop to it. Then there are set items as pet the list for each type of plant. It soon adds up.
Fowler VF
Member
- Location
- Herefordshire
The DNO's tend to be very arrogant over wayleaves. They will hide behind the Electricity Act 1989, which gives them all sorts of statutory powers. But this can also be their downfall, they tend to assume that their powers are all one sided; they aren't. Well worth reading this https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...for-applicants-and-landowner-and-or-occupiers
I was in a position where they couldn't be bothered to change the way leave payments to me when I bought the farm, despite having written several letters. It dragged on for years, then they also refused to pay back rent. I gave notice to quit. They sent a standard "you cant do that, we have statutory powers letter". But failed to follow through the proper procedures in the Act. I waited for the statutory period to be up and filed the notice to remove. They still refused to engage, but as the clock started ticking someone suddenly realised that they didn't have a leg to stand on and that they were going to have to go through the Secretary of State appeal route, costing them even more time and money. Because they hadn't followed the required notice protocols and notice periods they stood a very good chance of even the Secretary of State refusing them. They offered a new wayleave and offered to back date it, I refused to accept the standard rates as I told them that I hadn't authorised either NFU or CLA to negotiate on my behalf (those standard rates are not statutory they are a guideline). I cant reveal what they paid me as I had to sign an NDA, but it was worth the fight (and it was fun!)
Banking a cheque is not a good move though, this might have created an "implied wayleave".
I was in a position where they couldn't be bothered to change the way leave payments to me when I bought the farm, despite having written several letters. It dragged on for years, then they also refused to pay back rent. I gave notice to quit. They sent a standard "you cant do that, we have statutory powers letter". But failed to follow through the proper procedures in the Act. I waited for the statutory period to be up and filed the notice to remove. They still refused to engage, but as the clock started ticking someone suddenly realised that they didn't have a leg to stand on and that they were going to have to go through the Secretary of State appeal route, costing them even more time and money. Because they hadn't followed the required notice protocols and notice periods they stood a very good chance of even the Secretary of State refusing them. They offered a new wayleave and offered to back date it, I refused to accept the standard rates as I told them that I hadn't authorised either NFU or CLA to negotiate on my behalf (those standard rates are not statutory they are a guideline). I cant reveal what they paid me as I had to sign an NDA, but it was worth the fight (and it was fun!)
Banking a cheque is not a good move though, this might have created an "implied wayleave".
- Location
- Yorkshire
Well.......we're getting a visit from a Land Officer so we'll see what he has to say.
Fowler VF
Member
- Location
- Herefordshire
The fact that your "tenant" has a Land Officer is perhaps a good sign in some ways. I have always found that these guys want to keep things smooth and simple, and probably have a lot more leeway for negotiation than they let on to achieve that. Read that document on procedures for giving notice, make sure he knows that you have read it and understood it. The unsaid thing then is that he knows that you can make his life really awkward! As there is a Land Officer involved you are unlikely to get them to fall into the trap of forgetting to respond correctly and in due time to notices, but equally he wont want the hassle of having to do all of that. For you it would be just writing a few letters, for him it would be a lot more and having to explain to his bosses that he has a disgruntled "landlord". He will also know that if it ever got to appeal, even if they win, they cant claim costs. I doubt you will move him off the "standard" NFU/CLA numbers, they really dont like individual negotiations. But I bet he could move/fudge those back payments instead. You need to do a lot of checking as to just when the last payments were actually made, and to whom.
Incidentally, in terms of those agreed rates, as part of my run in with the DNO I took the trouble to log every activity on the farm and worked out the number of extra minutes it took to deal with working around a pole. E.g. I took 3 minutes of extra work to manouevre a sprayer around a pole, every time we sprayed. Doesn't sound much, but stick a sensible hourly rate on that for a skilled operator and expensive machine of over £100/hour, plus multiple spray passes and it adds up very quickly (and in my view very genuinely). I also took the position that whatever methods one used to negotiate the pole, the spraying quality in that area was bound to be compromised, e.g. slower speed = lower pressure= bigger droplets, boom bounce and yaw etc. So I then took a calculation with a % reduction in yield for the area of one boom width around a pole. In doing all this I came up with a starting figure of £68/pole for additional work time in a cereal crop (I assumed traditional cultivation and ploughing a dummy headland among other things) and a further £16/pole for yield reduction in a cereal crop. The numbers for potatoes were pretty massive, £276 and £196 respectively, mainly due to the difficulty of breaking rows and having another dummy headland. I also did a whole set of work, on additional management time, quoted the National Grid H&S guidelines on a whole load of things like straw stacks, irrigation pipes, combines etc and quoted case law to show that it was always the farmer who was prosecuted for H&S incidents with overhead lines not the DNO. So I claimed for additional insurance costs and management time in checking all activities annually and conveying said information to all staff, contractors and visitors, as required by H&S law. None of this would be needed if the pylons/poles weren't there.
As I say, I doubt you will move the Land Officer on rates very easily, if at all. But its sometimes useful to frighten them a bit with this sort of stuff, especially H&S things as it can help move them to where you want to be and get concessions on other things.
Incidentally, in terms of those agreed rates, as part of my run in with the DNO I took the trouble to log every activity on the farm and worked out the number of extra minutes it took to deal with working around a pole. E.g. I took 3 minutes of extra work to manouevre a sprayer around a pole, every time we sprayed. Doesn't sound much, but stick a sensible hourly rate on that for a skilled operator and expensive machine of over £100/hour, plus multiple spray passes and it adds up very quickly (and in my view very genuinely). I also took the position that whatever methods one used to negotiate the pole, the spraying quality in that area was bound to be compromised, e.g. slower speed = lower pressure= bigger droplets, boom bounce and yaw etc. So I then took a calculation with a % reduction in yield for the area of one boom width around a pole. In doing all this I came up with a starting figure of £68/pole for additional work time in a cereal crop (I assumed traditional cultivation and ploughing a dummy headland among other things) and a further £16/pole for yield reduction in a cereal crop. The numbers for potatoes were pretty massive, £276 and £196 respectively, mainly due to the difficulty of breaking rows and having another dummy headland. I also did a whole set of work, on additional management time, quoted the National Grid H&S guidelines on a whole load of things like straw stacks, irrigation pipes, combines etc and quoted case law to show that it was always the farmer who was prosecuted for H&S incidents with overhead lines not the DNO. So I claimed for additional insurance costs and management time in checking all activities annually and conveying said information to all staff, contractors and visitors, as required by H&S law. None of this would be needed if the pylons/poles weren't there.
As I say, I doubt you will move the Land Officer on rates very easily, if at all. But its sometimes useful to frighten them a bit with this sort of stuff, especially H&S things as it can help move them to where you want to be and get concessions on other things.
Is this always true?! My landlord claims there are no payments due to me as all easements, wayleaves etc are due to him as per tenancy (which I checked and is right) but is there money due to me then? Even if they are not accessing the land for maintenance? For my inconvenience in arable fields. Or are these new super deals that you have negotiated?In summary:
The land owner gets rent for each pole, the land occupier gets compensation for inconvenience. Owner occupiers get both. There are 3 rates for each item of equipment, "hedge" where it is not in a field, "pasture" for poles in grassland and "arable" where you have to cultivate round the pole or lose crop to it. Then there are set items as pet the list for each type of plant. It soon adds up.
BTW how did the grasseeding go @holwellcourtfarm?
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
Honest answer: I'm not sure. I suspect it's like BPS which is supposed to be for the person farming the land but is kept by the landlord under some agreements.
If you're tenancy says it's all for the landlord then I very much doubt that your DNO would want any part in the argument.
Add for the grass seed, the spreader went well and the seeds are coming ok thanks.
- Location
- Glen Clova, Angus, DD8 4RD
national grid getting ready to start re stringing the pylons here, Wondering if should tell them to finalise the new payment structure before they start working on this ??.
Whats the procedure for arranging a private deal instead of going along with the collective agreement. Any downside with dealing direct ?
Whats the procedure for arranging a private deal instead of going along with the collective agreement. Any downside with dealing direct ?
Just daydreaming here , what value per year would the elec be that transmitted by a 400k
transmission line carry ?
Should a pylon be paid at similar rate to a telecom mast ? it certainly causes more disruption to a farm.
We need to maximise the return from the land in view of the uncertainty of brexit, should we/can we
/ is it worth pursuing ?
transmission line carry ?
Should a pylon be paid at similar rate to a telecom mast ? it certainly causes more disruption to a farm.
We need to maximise the return from the land in view of the uncertainty of brexit, should we/can we
/ is it worth pursuing ?
- Location
- East Sussex
We had one and a half on/off pylons here back in 2001(?). Had a 24 hr security guard (that kept trying to sell us cherry) and a disinfecting ramp for the lorries (f&m). Had about 1/2 mile at least of ally track laid for the best part of six months across the field edges I guess.
We got £18k spent relaying the farm drive.
If they offer you a ride in the trolley to break of the old wire separators take it. I declined and wished I hadn't.
If they leave a big adjustable clipped to the wire right up high when they've finished don't offer to shoot it down with the .308......they didn't get the joke and nearly got in a whole heap of trouble
- Location
- Yorkshire
Well..... the land officer has been most helpful. She has insisted that we need a new agreement as the names of the business partners have changed. When I pointed out that NG is in breach of contract, she offered an extra 2 years payment so long as we paid NG to draw up a new agreement. I didn't think this was very fair and she has finally agreed to back pay all the missing years and not charge for a new agreement. A good and fair result. I wonder how many other pylons are stood about, not costing NG any rent?
Feldspar
Member
- Location
- Essex, Cambs and Suffolk
Always fun to have a tussle where you end up on top! I had a similarly satisfying one with the parking fine people at Stansted Airport recently. Felt quite proud of my legal letter telling them to bog off.