Need help with 1st dose fert strategy

To get our 55 kg/ha of N for our first dose on winter cereals we are currently applying DAP @ 125 kg/ha and Double Top @ 125 kg/ha in quick succession.

I have done some research on the liquid side of things to get a liquid product that would supply the above in one dose. Such a thing is available, but to get a solution that would go through our sprayer the cost is aroun £90/ha, or £30/ha more than the solid products' cost at the time. There was a suspension that could be applied for £60-70/ha, which included application by a contractor at 24m. My main problem with this is not being keen to be relying on a contractor. This year has shown that getting N on promptly often requires being able to jump on a spreader at short notice and being prepared to abandon / change plans in real time. Easier to do this oneself.


So, two questions: firstly, how important agronomically is a fresh supply of plant available P at the beginning of the growing season? I remember a lecture by Neil Fuller who said that getting P into the plant, to allow it to build up fine root hairs which in turn can pick up more N, was very important. Is that right however?

Secondly, is there any other solid products out there that would enable me to combine the above two doses into one? Want a product with consistent spreading quality rather than a blend.
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
To get our 55 kg/ha of N for our first dose on winter cereals we are currently applying DAP @ 125 kg/ha and Double Top @ 125 kg/ha in quick succession.

I have done some research on the liquid side of things to get a liquid product that would supply the above in one dose. Such a thing is available, but to get a solution that would go through our sprayer the cost is aroun £90/ha, or £30/ha more than the solid products' cost at the time. There was a suspension that could be applied for £60-70/ha, which included application by a contractor at 24m. My main problem with this is not being keen to be relying on a contractor. This year has shown that getting N on promptly often requires being able to jump on a spreader at short notice and being prepared to abandon / change plans in real time. Easier to do this oneself.


So, two questions: firstly, how important agronomically is a fresh supply of plant available P at the beginning of the growing season? I remember a lecture by Neil Fuller who said that getting P into the plant, to allow it to build up fine root hairs which in turn can pick up more N, was very important. Is that right however?

Secondly, is there any other solid products out there that would enable me to combine the above two doses into one? Want a product with consistent spreading quality rather than a blend.

You're right about what Neil said but I thought he said that you needed the P in the first 41 days of the plants life i.e. you've missed the boat. I'd be doing just N and S now.
 
You're right about what Neil said but I thought he said that you needed the P in the first 41 days of the plants life i.e. you've missed the boat. I'd be doing just N and S now.

My memory was that first Plumpton meeting was in very early spring. I remember the crops looked a bit sick at the time. He said roughly, IIRC, "What is the first thing you are all going to do? Slap a load of N on." He then said you should be getting P on very quickly first. He might have said the ideal is in the first 41 days, although I thought that was more about when the plant established it's yield potential (no evidence supplied, which I would like to see). IIRC he said P needs to be on a decent amount before GS30. Memory a bit hazy though.

For low disturbance direct drilling, I think there is a good argument for (perhaps placed) DAP in the autumn near to drilling. Then could just use a NS product for the 1st dose, and then straight N for the 2nd (and 3rd). Or, if using liquid, an NS blend the whole way through.
 
To get our 55 kg/ha of N for our first dose on winter cereals we are currently applying DAP @ 125 kg/ha and Double Top @ 125 kg/ha in quick succession.

I have done some research on the liquid side of things to get a liquid product that would supply the above in one dose. Such a thing is available, but to get a solution that would go through our sprayer the cost is aroun £90/ha, or £30/ha more than the solid products' cost at the time. There was a suspension that could be applied for £60-70/ha, which included application by a contractor at 24m. My main problem with this is not being keen to be relying on a contractor. This year has shown that getting N on promptly often requires being able to jump on a spreader at short notice and being prepared to abandon / change plans in real time. Easier to do this oneself.


So, two questions: firstly, how important agronomically is a fresh supply of plant available P at the beginning of the growing season? I remember a lecture by Neil Fuller who said that getting P into the plant, to allow it to build up fine root hairs which in turn can pick up more N, was very important. Is that right however?

Secondly, is there any other solid products out there that would enable me to combine the above two doses into one? Want a product with consistent spreading quality rather than a blend.

Stopped listening to the so called experts a few years ago and life is easier!

If you've got decent indexs of P & K you don't need to apply any. Index 2 and above it's not required.

Then you want about 90kg of sulphur so choose a product that gives you your wheat N target and just split that evenly between N1, N2, N3. This year we are on N22 10So3 and doing 250litres/ha/pass. Start in march sometime then go 4 weeks later and then 4 weeks later again.

KISS approach.
 
Stopped listening to the so called experts a few years ago and life is easier!

If you've got decent indexs of P & K you don't need to apply any. Index 2 and above it's not required.

Then you want about 90kg of sulphur so choose a product that gives you your wheat N target and just split that evenly between N1, N2, N3. This year we are on N22 10So3 and doing 250litres/ha/pass. Start in march sometime then go 4 weeks later and then 4 weeks later again.

KISS approach.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I think if you tinker at the edges lots you can end up adding cost.

But yes DAP is a good one to use as a bit of a pop up fert at drilling - that said my P indices are creeping above 3 so I have stopped using DAP for a few years and gone back to AS.
 
Stopped listening to the so called experts a few years ago and life is easier!

If you've got decent indexs of P & K you don't need to apply any. Index 2 and above it's not required.

Then you want about 90kg of sulphur so choose a product that gives you your wheat N target and just split that evenly between N1, N2, N3. This year we are on N22 10So3 and doing 250litres/ha/pass. Start in march sometime then go 4 weeks later and then 4 weeks later again.

KISS approach.

I thought you only need about 38-45 kg/ha SO3 for cereals? 75-100 kg/ha SO3 for OSR.
 
I thought you only need about 38-45 kg/ha SO3 for cereals? 75-100 kg/ha SO3 for OSR.

We were doing 60-70 and don't think it's enough so swapped product this year to increase the sulphur a bit to see. It's increased overall total litres applied marginally but not by much.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
I wouldn't put much faith in early P for winter cereals. If indices are good and the crop establishes ok then I don't see the need then. How much yield is really set pre Christmas?

Why not a tickle of TSP over winter if you want extra available P in spring?
 
I wouldn't put much faith in early P for winter cereals. If indices are good and the crop establishes ok then I don't see the need then. How much yield is really set pre Christmas?

Why not a tickle of TSP over winter if you want extra available P in spring?

Not that keen on TSP as a P source due to our soil type and lock up concerns.
 

franklin

New Member
If phosphate can only be sucked onto roots from about 1mm away from them; and we drill wheat 40mm deep; and roots go down; and phosphate is not very mobile in clay soils; then why would we want to put any on the top at all?

P-grow or similar in the autumn. Could replace all your spring fert with Kaynitro S if you want fresh spring K as well as a fairly balanced N+S granule. Might not like the price though.
 

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