Neonic resistance

[Clive]

Hopefully the nfu isn’t spending too much time and money on a lost cause like this. I have to laugh when prominent nfu farmers make videos etc saying that the neonic loss has ruined ‘sustainable’ osr farming in the U.K. nothing sustainable about complete reliance on one single active ingrediant!

they are spending 10’s of million on something every year (mostly wages !) quite what is mostly a bit of a mystery that members don’t seem to concerned about though

 

[ajd132]

All the info I get from the NFU is that it would be counterproductive to lobby for neonics, so I think they are on your message.

https://www.fwi.co.uk/arable/crop-management/bayer-and-nfu-battling-to-overturn-neonicotinoids-ban

sorry you were wrong

 

[7800]

the biggest problem by far with the increasing lack of actives is going to be in field scale veg
we'll then end up importing the produce from countries that have the actives available

 

[Cambridgeshire]

At the time they were banned they had started to fail anyway.

Nice idea to farm without insecticides and growth regulators. Weeds though, and, to a lesser extent, diseases, will always need chemical intervention whilst we apply the amounts of nitrogen fertiliser we do.

Exactly my point...

 

[DrWazzock]

At the time they were banned they had started to fail anyway.

Nice idea to farm without insecticides and growth regulators. Weeds though, and, to a lesser extent, diseases, will always need chemical intervention whilst we apply the amounts of nitrogen fertiliser we do.

I'll confess my beet has had Tepeki this year but I hate applying it. With the aphid numbers we have had this year it feels almost futile applying it anyway only for it to wipe out beneficials that were doing a bit to help, thereby leaving the crop defenceless after the initial action has worn off.

Might be scope for reduction in nitrogen usage as well. We have only ever applied about 75% of that recommended by RB209 and not found it to limit yields here. With the right weather conditions and luck on our side we have still achieved 11.25 t/ha wheat and 4.5t/ha OSR with 180 kgN/ha applied at the very most. There is a big danger in thinking crops need to look lush and dark green. In my view its not the best indicator of seed production potential. I don't ladle N onto my tomato plants in the greenhouse. I want fruit not leaf. Same with the wheat and OSR. I want seed not too much leaf. In fact same with breeding livestock. A big fat cow is a calving disaster.

I am sure overuse of N encourages leaf diseases and softens defences just as over consumption of sugar does in humans.

And I always say if nobody had started down the fungicide route, we would never have needed them. Same on the beet, initially gave 5% yield response, now we cant grow a crop without them. Some progress that is.

 

[ajd132]

I'll confess my beet has had Tepeki this year but I hate applying it. With the aphid numbers we have had this year it feels almost futile applying it anyway only for it to wipe out beneficials that were doing a bit to help, thereby leaving the crop defenceless after the initial action has worn off.

Might be scope for reduction in nitrogen usage as well. We have only ever applied about 75% of that recommended by RB209 and not found it to limit yields here. With the right weather conditions and luck on our side we have still achieved 11.25 t/ha wheat and 4.5t/ha OSR with 180 kgN/ha applied at the very most. There is a big danger in thinking crops need to look lush and dark green. In my view its not the best indicator of seed production potential. I don't ladle N onto my tomato plants in the greenhouse. I want fruit not leaf. Same with the wheat and OSR. I want seed not too much leaf. In fact same with breeding livestock. A big fat cow is a calving disaster.

I am sure overuse of N encourages leaf diseases and softens defences just as over consumption of sugar does in humans.

And I always say if nobody had started down the fungicide route, we would never have needed them. Same on the beet, initially gave 5% yield response, now we cant grow a crop without them. Some progress that is.

My main focus in agronomy now is nutrition and nitrogen use efficiency. How to make plants more resilient and not get the crazy lush growth the large amounts of AN give that lets disease in. Making big changes to our fertiliser regime for next season.

 

[DrWazzock]

We all like a big barn filling crops but sometimes we have "bought" the last ton per acre.
Lower seed rates, less vegetative growth, lower N rates, all things worthy of cautious consideration. With this being a dry light land farm my father always favoured lower seed rates and gradually I have learned why. Less plant density means less disease and they don't starve one another in a dry time and on average yields and quality is higher. Everybody told us to drill oats thickly but you just end up with husks if you do that here. I always thought my mate up on the wolds drilled his wheat too thin until I went and combined it and the grains were nearly as big as blackcurrants and it yielded well though you could whip a mouse through the crop.
Well that's what i am pondering today. Probably change my mind tomorrow.

 

[Kidds]

the biggest problem by far with the increasing lack of actives is going to be in field scale veg
we'll then end up importing the produce from countries that have the actives available

I think the CSFB issues are a result of the actions of OSR growers and as such have themselves already put paid to field scale brassica veg.

 

[MrNoo]

My main focus in agronomy now is nutrition and nitrogen use efficiency. How to make plants more resilient and not get the crazy lush growth the large amounts of AN give that lets disease in. Making big changes to our fertiliser regime for next season.

I am assuming CSFB hasnt found it's way down to sunny Suffolk yet then?
Neonics at least give us (certainly in this area) a fighting chance to get a crop away.
I would be more concerned by the blanket application of insecticides twice weekly by some farmers in the futile attempt to get their crops away. No point saying it doesnt happen, because it does. My agronomist told me of one chap who sprayed 8 times with insecticide over a 3 week period.
I dont spray for them rightly or wrongly and for the last 2 years have lost everything I drilled, one year I drilled twice, once early then re-drilled late, still ate the lot.
Even a cover crop I drilled 4 weeks ago was getting hammered by them, fortunately it has got away now. I suspect the only savior will be plant breeding, if they can actually earn their money and produce something the little beggers dont like to eat.

 

[ajd132]

I am assuming CSFB hasnt found it's way down to sunny Suffolk yet then?
Neonics at least give us (certainly in this area) a fighting chance to get a crop away.
I would be more concerned by the blanket application of insecticides twice weekly by some farmers in the futile attempt to get their crops away. No point saying it doesnt happen, because it does. My agronomist told me of one chap who sprayed 8 times with insecticide over a 3 week period.
I dont spray for them rightly or wrongly and for the last 2 years have lost everything I drilled, one year I drilled twice, once early then re-drilled late, still ate the lot.
Even a cover crop I drilled 4 weeks ago was getting hammered by them, fortunately it has got away now. I suspect the only savior will be plant breeding, if they can actually earn their money and produce something the little beggers dont like to eat.

Plenty of flea beetle around here I have just managed to get ‘lucky’ this year. My crops look okay. Didn’t even consider an insecticide. Don’t know if I will be able to replicate it this summer though.
Judging from twitter last August/September there was a lot of awful establishment which was blamed on flea beetles. Not saying they didn’t have an affect but they are very good scapegoat in some situations.

 

[MrNoo]

Well, if you've got crops and they look ok you havent really got FB have you! lol
I know stuff that was drilled late July, 1st week Aug and it was still scrapped. Trouble being the earlier you drill the earlier the BG gets going, bit of a double edged sword.
Chap next door but one reckoned he had it sussed, loads of chicken muck and digestate, planted something (cant remember what I am afraid) but the FB didnt like it, he then went back over and re-drilled 2 weeks later with the OSR. To be fair his crops did look well last year but dont look too hot this year (but he does have a crop of sorts which is an achievement in itself round here)

 

[DrWazzock]

In the garden radishes obliterated, but Rocket only slightly damaged, presumably because it has a strong taste(I think it’s brassica).
Kale obliterated but I drilled too early and too dry.
Is there much oil in the seed of Rocket. Looks a bit like rape seed. Lateral thinking needed.

 

[DrWazzock]

Fat hen completely undamaged.?

 

[ollie989898]

It is a huge shame to see the near total loss of OSR from rotations. Maybe the home grown market for beans will sort itself and they will find their way into animal rations in a big way, they are a great feed and we should be using a lot less imported protein anyway.

 

[Exfarmer]

In the garden radishes obliterated, but Rocket only slightly damaged, presumably because it has a strong taste(I think it’s brassica).
Kale obliterated but I drilled too early and too dry.
Is there much oil in the seed of Rocket. Looks a bit like rape seed. Lateral thinking needed.

Was it the removal of Erucic acid and one two other nasties in rape seed oil, by the plant breeders where the problems really started? This I believe is a natural inhibitor produced by the plant to deter grazing.
I am no expert on rape, not having grown it for 30 years

 

[DrWazzock]

Was it the removal of Erucic acid and one two other nasties in rape seed oil, by the plant breeders where the problems really started? This I believe is a natural inhibitor produced by the plant to deter grazing.
I am no expert on rape, not having grown it for 30 years

I suspect it was. We found the same when we grew cabbages. The sweeter (and more flavourless) varieties became, the more difficult it was to keep cabbage white butterfly off them.

 

[ajd132]

Well, if you've got crops and they look ok you havent really got FB have you! lol
I know stuff that was drilled late July, 1st week Aug and it was still scrapped. Trouble being the earlier you drill the earlier the BG gets going, bit of a double edged sword.
Chap next door but one reckoned he had it sussed, loads of chicken muck and digestate, planted something (cant remember what I am afraid) but the FB didnt like it, he then went back over and re-drilled 2 weeks later with the OSR. To be fair his crops did look well last year but dont look too hot this year (but he does have a crop of sorts which is an achievement in itself round here)

Blackgrass not really a problem in osr if you zero till (although any bare patch fills up and needs spraying with quad) cultivating for osr is a BG disaster from experience

 

[Hammer]

It is a huge shame to see the near total loss of OSR from rotations. Maybe the home grown market for beans will sort itself and they will find their way into animal rations in a big way, they are a great feed and we should be using a lot less imported protein anyway.

I agree, but unfortunately the loss of CTL could lead to major issues with bean growing from now on

 

[snarling bee]

So if the bean area drops, and OSR is almost history, where are the bees going to forage?

There are still chems you can use for choc. spot in beans, until they are banned or withdrawn as well, or the C Spot becomes resistant.

The NFU can't win. If they weren't supporting Bayer fighting the neonic ban then they would be criticised, If they do they are criticised. As always it is never a simple argument.

 

[T Hectares]

I agree, but unfortunately the loss of CTL could lead to major issues with bean growing from now on

Really ??whats your main fear ??
Loss of CTL is a blow but there’s still Azoxy, teb, boscalid and pyracla ( albeit expensively in Signum )