New basic Tractor choices?

[Cowabunga]

Anyone for an Armatrac.

ZF backend,Perkins engine,no adblue,110hp just over £30k new.

Can’t go far wrong surely?

http://www.armatrac-uk.com/index.php

View attachment 622802

Here today gone tomorrow? Used desirability and value? Back-up?
Plenty of scope to go wrong I'd say. Each to their own and it must be recognised that small brands have to start somewhere. How many do you think they will sell in the UK annually for the first few years? 5? 10? 20 maybe? What sort of local backup do you think such an enterprise can afford to provide?

Just a few pertinent questions for you to ponder. After that, they may well be fine tractors, although generally using Carraro transaxles and Perkins engines.

Come to think of it are any mainstream tractor brands still using Perkins engines these days? They seem to have lost 90%+ of their market share in agricultural equipment. All the handlers seem to have gone to Deutz or FPT, and tractors have gone AGCOpower/Sisu and FPT and Deutz. Why? Is it because they are too expensive or they are too thirsty or something?

 

[rhywun]

If it looks like an Agrotron cab, then its design is obviously based on an Agrotron cab. Its family resemblance is unmistakable. There's no way anyone could mistake it for anything else, inside or out. Where its made or even who actually fabricates doesn't matter in the least.

Personally I would not pay a penny extra for a Deutz engine if the Farmotion engine is economical simple reliable and a good performer. Why would I? The badge?

I think there may be confusion as to what cab is being talked about? The pictured hurlimann has a different cab to the Deutz 5G and the 5 series Deutz. I don't really know what Hurlimann model that is, but I presume it's one of the next models up?

The 5G has a 4 post cab, the Hurlimann (pictured) and Agrotron, a six post cab.

 

[Pheasant Surprise]

Come to think of it are any mainstream tractor brands still using Perkins engines these days? They seem to have lost 90%+ of their market share in agricultural equipment. All the handlers seem to have gone to Deutz or FPT, and tractors have gone AGCOpower/Sisu and FPT and Deutz. Why? Is it because they are too expensive or they are too thirsty or something?

Something similar in other sectors like construction, where Perkins have been squeezed out by a Kubota at the bottom of the HP range and by Deutz mainly at the top end of the ranges.

Both those manufacturers were fairly well prepared and had good packaged solutions for the later emissions Tier hikes. Felt like Perkins were pretty late to that party.

 

[michael N123]

of course, my memory let me down there. we bought an 805 valmet from him in 1985.
is he still going strong?

Yess he’s always at the workshop still selling valtras

 

[Cowabunga]

Something similar in other sectors like construction, where Perkins have been squeezed out by a Kubota at the bottom of the HP range and by Deutz mainly at the top end of the ranges.

Both those manufacturers were fairly well prepared and had good packaged solutions for the later emissions Tier hikes. Felt like Perkins were pretty late to that party.

Perkins went the single fluid route like JD instead of SCR for Stage 4 interim or whatever it was called. It seemed to me that none or very few of their customers were persuaded that the larger cooling package needed for this was worth engineering for. JD on the other hand are mainly their own customer, so didn't need to persuade anyone except their own customers and it worked for a while. Nobody seems to have blinked now that they too are using SCR/Adblue, even after all that bull about the single fluid [diesel only] advantage combined with high levels of exhaust gas recirculation [which they didn't shout about].

You would think that Perkins would have won back some of their market from Deutz by now. Perkins were/are well regarded and certainly as reliable as Deutz in my experience and a darned sight cheaper to repair should something go wrong. Perkins do advertise in some of the farming press now and again, although lord knows to what end when there are hardly any new machines fitted with their engines that farmers buy.

 

[H200GT]

Perkins have remained relatively popular in construction equipment such as water pumps, rollers, and screeners, all be it mainly branded as CAT engines

Perkins were brought by CAT in what must be over a decade ago now, if not a lot longer, and since then they have become more construction equipment focused from what I can see. They produce all of CAT's smaller engines, so global sales must still be huge.

 

[Cowabunga]

Perkins were bought by Cat 20 years ago this year. They supplied their engines to Cat long before then. Even so tractors and agriltural equipment, including industrial handlers were their primary customer base. They have lost nearly all of that base, so unless Cat themselves have increased their sales proportionately, Perkins production and sales will be down very significantly.
It’s potentially quite serious for the UK because Perkins are major engineering employers and exporters.

 

[8100]

Is the Perkins plant nr Shropshire way Just a cat engine recon place now ?. Sure I read that in a plant magazine some yrs back ..

 

[Cowabunga]

Is the Perkins plant nr Shropshire way Just a cat engine recon place now ?. Sure I read that in a plant magazine some yrs back ..

Perkins Shrewsbury used to be Rolls Royce Diesel engines. I was under the impression that Perkins shut it down at around the time Cat took over the business, some twenty years ago.
The main Perkins factory is at Peterborough.

 

[celtis man]

Isn't armtrac partly owned by mihandra of india? They have big plans for importing tractors to us after brexit :

 

[Cowabunga]

Isn't armtrac partly owned by mihandra of india? They have big plans for importing tractors to us after brexit :

Yeah great, but have we got big plans to buy them? I think not.

 

[Yale]

Yeah great, but have we got big plans to buy them? I think not.

Why not?

A lot of stock farms just want something that does the job without the bells and whistles.

Zetor sold well for years undercutting the main brands.

 

[holywell farmer]

Why not?

A lot of stock farms just want something that does the job without the bells and whistles.

Zetor sold well for years undercutting the main brands.

Some stockman these days going for gadgets in tractors

 

[Cowabunga]

Why not?

A lot of stock farms just want something that does the job without the bells and whistles.

Zetor sold well for years undercutting the main brands.

Yes they did years ago when they were very substantially cheaper than rivals.
Many brands try to sell into the UK, without much success. TAFE have been selling maybe ten or a dozen a year for years, possibly less some years. Farmers aren't queuing up to buy them even though they are proven reliable and familiar designs with plentiful parts readily available.
Some of those Chinese tractors have come and gone. Armatrac started through Broglio Ltd who didn't have a clue and this new lot are not having much success either.

However if you have already put your money where your mouth is, best of luck. The Armatrac looks to be an OK tractor as long as its 30 to 50% cheaper than the established big players, like for like. Otherwise why not buy an used big brand with a dealer warranty on it, which will already have taken the main depreciation hit?
Imagine trying to cash in one of those here-today gone-tomorrow brands when they have such a drastically low demand.

 

[rtc]

Just to finish the Perkins discussion from a current design engineer, the Shrewsbury site is still a going concern although they are mainly associated with defence products and reman. Peterborough is the design and development centre for 7litre and smaller products with the majority of those manufactured on site, and the rest at other factories in South America and Asia.

 

[Cowabunga]

Just to finish the Perkins discussion from a current design engineer, the Shrewsbury site is still a going concern although they are mainly associated with defence products and reman. Peterborough is the design and development centre for 7litre and smaller products with the majority of those manufactured on site, and the rest at other factories in South America and Asia.

Which engine series are manufactured at Shrewsbury? Apart from the marine versions, we in agriculture are very familiar with engines up to 7 litres. They cover the range from the 400 Series to the 1200 Series Perkins.
I've just had a look at their web site map of facilities and there's Peterborough and Stafford, but no mention of Shrewsbury.

I remember many years ago, before the bypass, travelling past the side of the Rolls Royce Shrewsbury [latterly Perkins] plant. I must have been very young and can only remember a big black shed by the side of the road.

 

[celtis man]

A few will risk an odd make of tractor if the price is right
That is how jd started in the uk

 

[Treemover]

What's a farmotion engine? Ie maker and other applications??

 

[Cowabunga]

What's a farmotion engine? Ie maker and other applications??

It’s SDF’s budget range of engines. Not heard a bad word about them personally. They were designed to replace the 1000 series engines due to emission compliance issues. Not sure whether they are fully built in India or whether just the main castings are made in India and they are finally assembled at Treviglio.

 

[rtc]

The site at Shrewsbury is a Caterpillar facility (all sites are really, Perkins is a brand of Caterpillar). As for manufacture at Shrewsbury, they don't form part of our standard engine range and just get involved in special defence projects.
As for our involvement in the ag sector, I can only quote from my perceived opinion and not company direction (I only read the social media work policy today so have to be clear about those things). An ag variant of an engine is quite expensive, the design, simulation and validation of the structural sump alone is very significant, so profits can be much tighter than say designing for a generator / pump etc. Even then they are low volume high cost parts. Combine that with the vertical integration of one of our historic customers (and one time owner) with an engine company (Agco and Sisu/Valmet). Meaning smaller volumes of tractors with 3rd party engines. Finally this integration is only getting more complicated for 3rd party suppliers (not impossible just more complicated) with the fitting on or off engine of the various after treatment systems (be it DOC, DPF, SCR). It could also be argued our product lineup didn't fit (people may have preferred a 3.4 l 4cyl instead of our 3.3l 3cyl).
One reason we are developing our clean sheet 900series Syncro engine https://www.perkins.com/en_GB/products/product-range/syncro/perkins-syncro/28-36-syncro.html.
So I would say, IMHO, it has been in equal parts strategic and market driven.
However we do still supply plenty of engines into the ag-sector. Claas, Knight, Lindner, Landini, McCormick, Vicon sprayers, plus lot of Asian brands.