- Location
- Carmarthenshire, West Wales
it always shocks me how rough the cows can be to calves from another cow, and for that matter how the cows bully each other, I wonder if that is where the word bullying come from!
New born lamb kicked in ribs and dragged by hind limb into and around trailer
- Thread starter Concerned sheep owner
- Start date
Farmer 83563
Member
If you have any common sense just go and have a chat with the farmer/worker - if you go with an open mind you both might learn something. Quite simple really!
- Location
- Aberdeenshire
@Concerned sheep owner , I'm really sorry for some of the overtly aggressive replies above. If what you witnessed is accurate then there is no excuse and yes you should contact the owner. However and this is a big however, commercial sheep do not behave like pet sheep, their flight reflex has not been moderated by frequent pleasurable sheep-human interactions such as hand feeding, scratched ears and belly rubs. This being the case when a ewe needs bringing in for her or her lambs welfare the farmer may have to use the lamb as a lure for the ewe. If the lamb is moderately sprightly the farmer may have to trip the lamb momentarily off balance in order to catch it. He may sweep the lambs legs from under it. As stated above there are certain triggers which make the sheep follow the lamb, bleating and movement being the two primary ones. A picked up and cuddled lamb exhibits neither reaction, thus gently dragging the lamb by both hind legs allows the ewe to see and hear it and thus follow it by a genetic compulsion built in to trigger her maternal impulses. The concerned farmer can then deal with whatever problem has arisen. I hope this offers you clarity and a possible mental review of what you have seen. If you are sure of what you have seen I'm sorry, this is not representative behavior of sheep farmers who endanger their own health during lambing time with countless hours of attention, dangerously little sleep and meals only when every problem has been sorted and all animals fed and safe.
Aspiring Peasants
Member
- Location
- North Pennines
To the OP if you read other posts on here you will see that behind the banter are a group of people who work tirelessly often in conditions where most people wouldn't venture out. Sure there can be bad apples in every barrel but they are few and far between.
I'm just watching snow come down at the moment, if I have a new born lamb outside that is struggling, which is most cruel, leave it to die or use some guile, in this case trick the ewe into thinking its lamb is under threat to get it in the trailer?
I see far more welfare issues with people who have dogs which are so untrained they can't be let off a lead to have a run, dogs that are shut up all day because their owners are at work and of course dogs that are allowed to worry sheep.
There's a saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing " and keeping a few pet sheep as a hobby is totally different from a commercial business. Of course we would all like to have lots of staff to molycoddle the sheep but that would involve the consumer paying more for they're food and they don't want to do that. Welcome to the real world !
I'm just watching snow come down at the moment, if I have a new born lamb outside that is struggling, which is most cruel, leave it to die or use some guile, in this case trick the ewe into thinking its lamb is under threat to get it in the trailer?
I see far more welfare issues with people who have dogs which are so untrained they can't be let off a lead to have a run, dogs that are shut up all day because their owners are at work and of course dogs that are allowed to worry sheep.
There's a saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing " and keeping a few pet sheep as a hobby is totally different from a commercial business. Of course we would all like to have lots of staff to molycoddle the sheep but that would involve the consumer paying more for they're food and they don't want to do that. Welcome to the real world !
- Location
- West Wales
This is exactly what I thought, sweeping the hind legs away is surely better for Joe public to see than a few dogs been sent to drop a lambIf I don’t have a crook on me, I will sometimes catch a lamb by running after them and sweeping their back legs out with my foot to trip them. I guess numpty might think I had kicked it in the ribs, viewing from a distance?
Once I’ve caught it, I would routinely carry him back to the trailer by his back legs, sometimes lightly dragging his front legs on the ground if the ewe is more attentive to that. All the time, I will be making a sound like a distressed lamb in order to get the mother to follow if she’s a bit skitty. Again numpty, viewing from a distance, might think the lamb was in agony.
Lord knows what he might think when I utter the word ‘catch’ to my three collies and they launch off the back of the quad in unison....
There is also a huge difference between a sweep and a kick, from afar they look the same but a sweep will not damage the lamb, a kick would more than likely kill the lamb.. @OP, the lamb will more than likely be ringed etc so that the tail will fall off over time, this is incredibly common practice and far more humane than having flystrike resulting in a painful death.
If I had someone nearby who was concerned I would want them to turn up and question why things were done a certain way, if you show/educate someone about the needs for certain practices they are more likely to tell others they know about why/what/when things happen and they’d be on your side - it’s always handy having a neighbour/daily Walker who will upright sheep or say if there is something really wrong.
Farmer 83563
Member
Having a reasonable converation never hurts ... way better than reporting to 'other authorities'!
primmiemoo
Member
- Location
- Devon
@Concerned sheep owner, hope things here haven't been set off on too wrong a foot. Now, then ~ which breed d'you keep, and in what ways do they seem to conspire to vex you most?
Now it's the cusp of the end of lambing, all here (very carefully bred mongrels) are too fast, and far too close to the ground ~
Now it's the cusp of the end of lambing, all here (very carefully bred mongrels) are too fast, and far too close to the ground ~
- Location
- sw scotland
I am not sure that calling the OP a numpty and accusing them of lying is helpful. I accept they saw something which looked unacceptable but needs explained which has been done by some posters above. We have all held a lamb to attract the mother or have a dog knock it over to catch it.
However, even if you are tired, I don't accept that picking a lamb up by a back leg and throwing it in a trailer looks good.
We all have non-farming neighbours. I have 10 houses and they put up with mud and Shiite on the road in winter, alert me to escaped stock, cowped ewes and calving cows. Their kids get to feed pet lambs and ride their horse and bikes on farm tracks. It all helps towards some understanding of farming.
However, even if you are tired, I don't accept that picking a lamb up by a back leg and throwing it in a trailer looks good.
We all have non-farming neighbours. I have 10 houses and they put up with mud and Shiite on the road in winter, alert me to escaped stock, cowped ewes and calving cows. Their kids get to feed pet lambs and ride their horse and bikes on farm tracks. It all helps towards some understanding of farming.
Who throws lambs into trailers? Seriously?
@neilo described exactly what I’ve done a thousand times, sweeping a running lamb off its feet is an effective way to catch it, I often carry lambs by one back leg when trying to lead a wary ewe as it will easily stand when you stop an you can generally convince her to follow like that!! Also I can understand the comments above, since the increase in farm programmes where everything looks idyllic an every farmer goes around with a permanent smile, the general public seem to think they’re an authority on good practice! We have a patch of ground surrounding a village an when we turned the lambs out the phone was red hot for a fortnight with concerned people reporting lambs lying down, lambs on there own, lambs sucking the wrong ewe, lambs looking neglected, had one resident present me with a dead lamb they’d had in the house for twenty four hours because it looked cold but they said it’s dead now so here you go!! Now that’s why farmers get fecked off with concerned public, I would say 99 percent of farmers do the best for their stock an have their best interests at heart, I know that we’d go without so that the stock could be kept well!! These programmes that paint a picture through rose tinted glasses do not represent the true day to day events on a working farm and In my opinion shelter jo public from the realities of life an death on the farm! However this farming life is a very good programme an should be commended for showing warts an all life on the farm!
To the OP...
As well as farming a whack of livestock, i write a bit.
Something I've been doing lately is corresponding with a ..we'll call them a 'newbie lady smallholder', on how to manage her newly acquired cattle.
As a favour, i've been writing her a careful tutorial -which some of my nearest and dearest say ought to be expanded into the next book.
Getting the lady to understand that she has to assert herself with her 2 cows is hard work.
She's no shrinking violet by any means, but is repelled by the idea of clouting a beloved cow across the snout.
As a result, one of the cows has become increasingly pushy - i know the beast, and she's by no means a snotty character...indeed, she's one of the kinder bovines I've come across.
I'm anxious she gets the idea before cow number 2 calves, as that one ain't so sweet.
I have got through to me chum that she has to be top dog, although even now the idea of picking up a piece of plastic water pipe or a hazel stick to explain how their relationship has to work is abhorrent to her.
I'm telling the tale to illustrate how such matters can look and seem to someone less acquainted with stockwork.
Mind, if what you think is happening -malicious booting- is the case, then it's indefensible.
As well as farming a whack of livestock, i write a bit.
Something I've been doing lately is corresponding with a ..we'll call them a 'newbie lady smallholder', on how to manage her newly acquired cattle.
As a favour, i've been writing her a careful tutorial -which some of my nearest and dearest say ought to be expanded into the next book.
Getting the lady to understand that she has to assert herself with her 2 cows is hard work.
She's no shrinking violet by any means, but is repelled by the idea of clouting a beloved cow across the snout.
As a result, one of the cows has become increasingly pushy - i know the beast, and she's by no means a snotty character...indeed, she's one of the kinder bovines I've come across.
I'm anxious she gets the idea before cow number 2 calves, as that one ain't so sweet.
I have got through to me chum that she has to be top dog, although even now the idea of picking up a piece of plastic water pipe or a hazel stick to explain how their relationship has to work is abhorrent to her.
I'm telling the tale to illustrate how such matters can look and seem to someone less acquainted with stockwork.
Mind, if what you think is happening -malicious booting- is the case, then it's indefensible.
Don’t I know it, I’ve had the SSPCA called to register a lamb stuck on the wrong side of a fence by concerned incomers with a telescope!
How did the lamb get hold of a telescope.
And yes, the best way of getting a reluctant ewe to follow its lamb is to hold the lamb by its hind legs and to walk backwards with the lamb's shoulders touching the ground. If need be, stop now and again, let the ewe sniff the lamb's head, and proceed.
- Location
- sw scotland
My 16 year old cow left 13 calves but her hip was giving up so she had to go. She was not keen to leave her calf but after the driver gave 6 whacks with alkathene I had to tell him to stop - twice. What is acceptable to some is not to others.
Just saying.
- Location
- Fife
I'd shove his fücking alkathene up his arse sideways if he continued after I'd told him to stop.
When I worked on the dairy farm 2 girls went cull after milking. They weren't keen on loading. The lorry driver and the tractor driver were stood outside the race next to the lorry waving their arms, shouting and hitting the cows with stick. I told them both to shut up and stand back, then got in the race and walked the girls up the ramp.
Some people have no stock sense.
Last edited:
CopperBeech
Member
- Location
- A Welsh man lost in England
Probably what neilo said.
And anyone who says they haven’t tripped a lamb up, dumbed one on its arse / back to stop it chasing you, or shoved it back toward mum with your foot....... hasn’t lambed many sheep outside
One of the biggest pains in the arse are bungalow dwelling paddock farmers who think they are experts in all things farming.
I recently got accused of cruelty for scruffing and lifting a terrier ffs.
And anyone who says they haven’t tripped a lamb up, dumbed one on its arse / back to stop it chasing you, or shoved it back toward mum with your foot....... hasn’t lambed many sheep outside
One of the biggest pains in the arse are bungalow dwelling paddock farmers who think they are experts in all things farming.
I recently got accused of cruelty for scruffing and lifting a terrier ffs.
CopperBeech
Member
- Location
- A Welsh man lost in England
Everything is a matter of perspective also. If you pick up a lamb that needs pts, swinging it by the back legs and smacking its head off a tree or hitting it on the head with a claw hammer is legal and effective. However to someone who happens to be snooping, you have just viciously attacked a lamb with a hammer etc
betweenthelines
Member
- Location
- southwest
Is it any wonder some people question whether farmers should be subsidised?
OP needs to speak to the owner of the flock.
They may be grateful for this unacceptable behaviour being pointed out. Or they may explain that the OP was mistaken in what they saw.
Even if you think the OP is a "secret agent" why be openly rude or aggressive? That would just reinforce their mistaken belief that all farmers are barstewards
OP needs to speak to the owner of the flock.
They may be grateful for this unacceptable behaviour being pointed out. Or they may explain that the OP was mistaken in what they saw.
Even if you think the OP is a "secret agent" why be openly rude or aggressive? That would just reinforce their mistaken belief that all farmers are barstewards
Headless chicken
Member
- Location
- West Wales
there is a time that shouting is required. There is a time where a smack is required but this these situations certainly pale in comparison to the times where a quite Calm shove is the appropriate action