New Defender - Land rover micro site

[bumkin]

Personally I think it's a shame LR have ignored farmers with the new Defender. Yes, we're a small market but arguably farmers gave the old Defender its identity as a dependable, rural workhorse which is what attracted trendy city-types looking for a rugged, outdoorsy image. Now LR are milking the values we created, but their vehicles no longer appeal to the types of people they proclaim to be for.
Instead, people wanting the outdoor grafter look will get a proper pickup like real outdoor workers use. This is happening already, how many big, shiny pickups are there around that have never had anything in the load bed?

thats a good thing when they have finished ponsing around in them we can afford to buy them a nice three year old pick up thats had nothing in the back but the weekly shop just the thing for us and a fraction of the price

 

[JP1]

Totally agree about the Disco One and Two. Superb vehicles that will go virtually anywhere a Defender will, but in relative comfort, and with the option of having the driver’s window closed, and at a fraction of the price.

If the Disco Td 300 and TD5 had had a galvanised chassis and a pick up option it would have been one of the best, cheapest and most accomplished farm vehicles ever made. Still brilliant vehicles for fraction of the price of a Stone Age Defender if you can find good examples.

Personally I think it's a shame LR have ignored farmers with the new Defender. Yes, we're a small market but arguably farmers gave the old Defender its identity as a dependable, rural workhorse which is what attracted trendy city-types looking for a rugged, outdoorsy image. Now LR are milking the values we created, but their vehicles no longer appeal to the types of people they proclaim to be for.
Instead, people wanting the outdoor grafter look will get a proper pickup like real outdoor workers use. This is happening already, how many big, shiny pickups are there around that have never had anything in the load bed?

^^^ This

Look how much other manufacturers spend on their brand image

 

[uztrac]

thats a good thing when they have finished ponsing around in them we can afford to buy them a nice three year old pick up thats had nothing in the back but the weekly shop just the thing for us and a fraction of the price

I have done what you describe on a couple of occasions,ex Chelsea tractors with about 30k on the clock carried children to school etc,mainly Range rovers & Touaregs with full mdsh etc.

 

[fergie35]

@Cowabunga https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/official-ineos-confirms-bridgend-factory-grenadier-4x4 in the news today

 

[Chris F]

I saw that as well @fergie35

 

[Cowabunga]

@Cowabunga https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/official-ineos-confirms-bridgend-factory-grenadier-4x4 in the news today

There are a few things that strike me and one or two puzzles as well.

First is that the UK four door pickup market is 60,000 annually out of 200,000 European sales. So a pretty big market which LR have let go to rivals and which they cannot possibly compete with the new Defender with monocoque body/chassis.

Then I cannot quite fathom why Grenadier would bother with body production and component acquisition at Portugal then going to the expense of shipping it over to meet the German engine and transmission, to meet in South Wales. Sounds like a very very needlessly expensive and logistically testing way to go about things.

Apart from assembly labour, and possibly a few trim pieces, what exactly is British about the Grenadier? At least the engines for the new Defender are British built, but from the above article, it seems that all major and most minor components for Grenadier will be imported, including painted bodies. Most peculiar when there are so many component manufacturers and skilled workers near the South Wales final assembly plant.

Is there really any advantage in a live axle front and back in this day and age? On the balance of performance, reliability, comfort, reliability and roadholding, even offroading, I strongly suspect not these days.

 

[pgk]

Does seem odd, especially as they indicate production of c25k a year which suggests they will produce lots of bespoke variants but again how does this tie up with transport of body shells. Bentley do it but look what they sell each unit for. They have put a strong team together so assume they have crunched the numbers. Maybe like Triumph motorcycles it is a vanity project and main man is happy to use losses against profitable chemicals elsewhere in the group and let the project grow organically.

 

[JP1]

There are a few things that strike me and one or two puzzles as well.

First is that the UK four door pickup market is 60,000 annually out of 200,000 European sales. So a pretty big market which LR have let go to rivals and which they cannot possibly compete with the new Defender with monocoque body/chassis.

Then I cannot quite fathom why Grenadier would bother with body production and component acquisition at Portugal then going to the expense of shipping it over to meet the German engine and transmission, to meet in South Wales. Sounds like a very very needlessly expensive and logistically testing way to go about things.

Apart from assembly labour, and possibly a few trim pieces, what exactly is British about the Grenadier? At least the engines for the new Defender are British built, but from the above article, it seems that all major and most minor components for Grenadier will be imported, including painted bodies. Most peculiar when there are so many component manufacturers and skilled workers near the South Wales final assembly plant.

Is there really any advantage in a live axle front and back in this day and age? On the balance of performance, reliability, comfort, reliability and roadholding, even offroading, I strongly suspect not these days.

Maybe all true

BUT he's a Brit spotting a void in the market left by the arrogance of the Indian owners of LR. He's building something that will be badged and branded British. He'll be supporting more jobs (in Wales) than Ford want to do. Surely your ire would be better being turned towards Ford who have closed that plant (or the UK Government for gold plating regs and tacitly allowing the anti diesel zealots get away with their thought control) and also keep advertising Pride of Britain sh!t in adverts whilst having moved Southampton plant (the home of the Transit for all of my life) to Turkey

If he produces something on a chassis that keeps bespoke bodywork specialists employed and suits those with bespoke vehicle applications as well as a modern day "hosedown" working / towing 4x4, isn't that something to be celebrated?

 

[Nithsdale]

TATA are missing a trick here...


Let LR spec the Defender to the teeth as a luxury vehicle and price it at 50k+... let them drop all commercial models and push in the direction they clearly want to head.

Why don't TATA as the parent company then rebadge the Defender, make a few exterior changes (grill, lights etc), strip out the majority of the electrics and fancy touches. Sell it in commercial variant only with a price to reflect.

Everyone's happy (except for the badge snobs who wouldn't own a TATA no matter what...)

 

[Cowabunga]

Maybe all true

BUT he's a Brit spotting a void in the market left by the arrogance of the Indian owners of LR. He's building something that will be badged and branded British. He'll be supporting more jobs (in Wales) than Ford want to do. Surely your ire would be better being turned towards Ford who have closed that plant (or the UK Government for gold plating regs and tacitly allowing the anti diesel zealots get away with their thought control) and also keep advertising Pride of Britain sh!t in adverts whilst having moved Southampton plant (the home of the Transit for all of my life) to Turkey

If he produces something on a chassis that keeps bespoke bodywork specialists employed and suits those with bespoke vehicle applications as well as a modern day "hosedown" working / towing 4x4, isn't that something to be celebrated?

Did I express ire anywhere? Not as far as I'm concerned. I'm just rather surprised at a business model that builds needless logistical complication and much expense into the product. What is the point of building the chassis and body in Portugal and dragging them all the way to South Wales to bolt it together with imported engines and gearboxes from Germany? I'm not angry about it. Just very surprised at the plan.

I surmise that there is more to it than meets the eye. Jim Ratcliffe is nobody's fool and he is probably hedging his bets so that final assembly can be done in either location should the UK be unsuitable for reasons you can probably guess.
The timing of the announcement coincides with the Defender launch, and that is surely no coincidence either.
It will only take until the end of the year to judge whether the UK is worth investing in. By which time he will not have laid a brick down in South Wales. You must remember that Ineos makes almost all its profit from plants outside the UK and Jim Ratcliffe has moved his company domicile to mainland Europe more than once for political and tax reasons.

 

[Cowabunga]

TATA are missing a trick here...


Let LR spec the Defender to the teeth as a luxury vehicle and price it at 50k+... let them drop all commercial models and push in the direction they clearly want to head.

Why don't TATA as the parent company then rebadge the Defender, make a few exterior changes (grill, lights etc), strip out the majority of the electrics and fancy touches. Sell it in commercial variant only with a price to reflect.

Everyone's happy (except for the badge snobs who wouldn't own a TATA no matter what...)

So you want a posh-only Defender and then a variant of the same vehicle with no starter motor, lights, air-con, emission equipment, leccy windows and mirrors and a Tata badge on it? Well maybe you want most of those after all?
Maybe Slovakia is not a low-enough cost country to assemble it? Import them from a Tata factory in India instead?

It is not going to happen of course. To make anything more than a van commercial, they need a separate chassis. Grenadier are going to build pretty much what you want, but it will, of necessity, still be stuffed full of electronics. Maybe to a lesser extent than Defender, but there is only a limited amount of electronics they can possibly strip out of a vehicle today.
The Grenadier is unlikely to be much cheaper than the LR Defender though. If you wish for a similar vehicle price comparison that is available today, compare new Defender price in basic form with similarly equipped Jeep Wrangler. There's not much in it.

 

[Nithsdale]

So you want a posh-only Defender and then a variant of the same vehicle with no starter motor, lights, air-con, emission equipment, leccy windows and mirrors and a Tata badge on it? Well maybe you want most of those after all?
Maybe Slovakia is not a low-enough cost country to assemble it? Import them from a Tata factory in India instead?

It is not going to happen of course. To make anything more than a van commercial, they need a separate chassis. Grenadier are going to build pretty much what you want, but it will, of necessity, still be stuffed full of electronics. Maybe to a lesser extent than Defender, but there is only a limited amount of electronics they can possibly strip out of a vehicle today.
The Grenadier is unlikely to be much cheaper than the LR Defender though. If you wish for a similar vehicle price comparison that is available today, compare new Defender price in basic form with similarly equipped Jeep Wrangler. There's not much in it.

You're being ridiculous, deliberately.

I couldn't give a toss about electric windows or mirrors - or the stupid auto gearbox, or the descent control, traction control the 35 other ECU's the new Defender has which really aren't needed!.. you don't need them and you can easily put a capable 4x4 together without them.

Where did I say anything other than a van variant? Stop putting words in my mouth. I said let LR ditch commercial and let TATA pick up that mantle with a simpler/more basic variant.

It is VERY doable and wouldn't take much. BUT too many probably wouldn't buy it because of the badge on it

 

[JP1]

You're being ridiculous, deliberately.

I couldn't give a toss about electric windows or mirrors - or the stupid auto gearbox, or the descent control, traction control the 35 other ECU's the new Defender has which really aren't needed!.. you don't need them and you can easily put a capable 4x4 together without them.

Where did I say anything other than a van variant? Stop putting words in my mouth. I said let LR ditch commercial and let TATA pick up that mantle with a simpler/more basic variant.

It is VERY doable and wouldn't take much. BUT too many probably wouldn't buy it because of the badge on it

We'll let the start motor and a radio that gets Radio 4 through

 

[Nithsdale]

We'll let the start motor and a radio that gets Radio 4 through

I do like a starter motor... you couldn't bump start the old Defender so it is a necessity


Never had a radio in our old 300tdi and I never missed it really. The Puma does have one but I can live without it. It has no electric windows or mirrors and I'm perfectly happy with that. No electric seats, or heated seats either...

There's a lot of sh*t in cars just aren't needed!

 

[JP1]

I do like a starter motor... you couldn't bump start the old Defender so it is a necessity


Never had a radio in our old 300tdi and I never missed it really. The Puma does have one but I can live without it. It has no electric windows or mirrors and I'm perfectly happy with that. No electric seats, or heated seats either...

There's a lot of sh*t in cars just aren't needed!

And I want an interior (buck body or cab), that I can pressure wash the sh1t out. That's the whole idea

 

[Nithsdale]

And I want an interior (buck body or cab), that I can pressure wash the sh1t out. That's the whole idea

Yes!!

I'm not long home from a ram sale, with new purchase loaded in the back of the 110. Used to regularly do it with the 90 hard top, too - but we never ever did it with the carpeted Daihatsu Fourtrak...

 

[JeepJeep]

Need a C15 pickup.. on Muds it'll do the Job.

 

[Paddington]

Tata are due to start importing cars into the UK next year at the same time the new Defender is launched. They do a chassis type pick up as well.
https://pickup.tatamotors.com/

 

[pgk]

Fil had a Tata pick up some years ago from new. Cheap but not cheerful. Still it was sold through leyland daf dealer who were very good at providing a van for its regular visits. Rhd conversion was botched which was first recall, brakes and pipes all, redone, all fuel lines replaced along with a lot of wiring loom. Enough steel in it to build 2 jap pick ups. Old 2.0l Peugeot diesel, drank like a fish, smoked like a trooper!

 

[Cowabunga]

You're being ridiculous, deliberately.

I couldn't give a toss about electric windows or mirrors - or the stupid auto gearbox, or the descent control, traction control the 35 other ECU's the new Defender has which really aren't needed!.. you don't need them and you can easily put a capable 4x4 together without them.

Where did I say anything other than a van variant? Stop putting words in my mouth. I said let LR ditch commercial and let TATA pick up that mantle with a simpler/more basic variant.

It is VERY doable and wouldn't take much. BUT too many probably wouldn't buy it because of the badge on it

Too many wouldn't buy it because it was too basic.
Even the basic Grenadier is to be automatic only, like the new Defender. Within a short space of time, like five to ten years, the manual gearbox with dry clutch will be something crazy old people want but don't buy. It will be deleted from the option list of most cars and light trucks like the Grenadier and Defender and pickup trucks.