New livestock EID measures announced by Michael Gove

[mo!]

?

As much as I enjoy your cryptic posts as the next man, I need a little more to go on.

 

[milkloss]

What, he'd have to produce what the market demands? How terrible. The supermarkets already have us by the nuts I don't see how transparency will negatively affect those who are doing the job right. It would enable me to make better decisions about which antibiotic to use on that sick bullock, or see that a particular breeder has a poor deadweight gain and pay accordingly, and pay a good one better. Hell, the bad breeder might even sort out his Johnes issue which will make him more profit. Disaster.

Aw, would you have to use judgment and experience to choose an animal like market forces would dictate in the auction ring? Or is it that you want to sit at a desk and cherry pick all the very best produce by browsing all the breeders records? Better still, you could pay some guy in India to do it for you for pennies.

Now you bring it up, I suspect you wouldn’t need to choose which AB to use on that sick bullock because a vet would have to do it for you, after all that’s what controlling records online is all about. Then he would probably only sell you a syringe full for treating that one animal. The joys of fully integrated digital record keeping eh?

 

[mo!]

Firstly the supermarkets have not got 100% grip on us yet as still a live trade, secondly market forces guide people to produce "whats wanted" As for johnes i have it i test every year and cull them that are positive what more can i do ? Least im open about it more than some that hide it and spread it.

Aren't you in Scotland? Will this apply to you?

As I understand it there are many factors that contribute to Johnes. I wish more farmers would follow your example in testing and then we wouldn't be taking the hit as finishers.

The live trade in what I produce is dead, we hung on for as long as we could (too long) but you can only lose £50 a head for so long.

There's enough folks on here moaning that they aren't getting paid for monster carcasses to show that farmers aren't producing for the market.

 

[mo!]

Aw, would you have to use judgment and experience to choose an animal like market forces would dictate in the auction ring? Or is it that you want to sit at a desk and cherry pick all the very best produce by browsing all the breeders records? Better still, you could pay some guy in India to do it for you for pennies.

Now you bring it up, I suspect you wouldn’t need to choose which AB to use on that sick bullock because a vet would have to do it for you, after all that’s what controlling records online is all about. Then he would probably only sell you a syringe full for treating that one animal. The joys of fully integrated digital record keeping eh?

Surely I would be able to value the cattle more accurately, up as well as down, and decide on what level of risk I was prepared to accept. If you saw the dreg ends of cattle we have here you wouldn't have made that point!

My vet (she), already has clients that are only supplied by the syringe. We are allowed to buy AB for our own stock. My vet advises me on which AB to use already, but if I knew it had already had three shots of Draxxin I wouldn't waste my money and use something which might actually help rather than contributing to the AB resistance problem.

 

[gone up the hill]

The point is you can still use a paper based system if that suits you better - simply carry on as you are for ever (or as long as is permitted) Just tag the calves as you do already. But the tag has a chip in it. What really is the problem?

I must be one of the few but EID is a massive assist for me - had an RPA inspection - all clear, for instance.
That's without easy record keeping, easy checking treatment records before cattle go for slaughter another example.

I would also say the current system is not 100% accurate - we have had a beast killed on the wrong passport.
Some years ago pre eid - 2 bought in stores - both black angus heifer in the same pen similar size both with same second number both starting UK16..... we sent the wrong passport they didn't pick up the mistake and killed it. It was only when the second beast went to kill that it came to light!
If only they had been eid tagged!!

The other thing is we get a significant number of wrong passports come with cattle - yes it can be put right but more evidence that the current system is NOT 100%

I grant you there is room for improvement in tag readability - but I doubt you could read and record 100 cattle (from different herds) without mistake in the time an eid takes to read them even with a couple of non reads.

No under the new system you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE PAPER RECORDS or are you just ignoring this key fact to further your argument.

As for Eid helping to improve growth rates between different farms, complete BS, two farms may have cattle from one farm, one of the buyers pushes the cattle like hell on an intensive system and one uses a grass/ forage based system ( just like the farm where the animal is born could run either system ) so just because the cattle are EID tagged isn't going to give you any usefull info on growth rates on other farms.

And if a farmer needs to consult a vet to give basic meds for basic conditions for every animal they treat then in all honesty they shouldn't be in the care of livestock.

Ref the passport screw up. mistakes happen but very poor management/ systems in place on your farm if that can happen and be unnoticed, any good manager would when drawing out cattle to send to slaughter/ market at that time write down the ear tag num, get the passport out and then on the day of loading check that each animal loaded has the correct passport. takes a couple of mins to check off the ear tag num's with the passports you are sending.

If you read the EID tags the day before they go so you can put the ear tag nums on the paperwork you could still load the wrong animal the next day unless you run each animal up the race and EID read the tags as they are loaded..................................................

Mistakes can happen ( and does ) on any system be that paper or electronic...........

Some cattle do have the incorrect sex on passports but Eid tagging wont stop mistakes happening when farmers register a calve and ticking the wrong box for the sex of the animal.

 

[gone up the hill]

Come on, if you to hard on folk they just go away and never come back, Frank has made some hell of a good contributions to this place as you have but dont go over board as without posters their is nothing.

Frank the wool was bang out of order suggesting that I don't record any or all med treatments to my animals so if you think im going to let him imply that and not challenge him then you are very mistaken.

In all honesty Frank needs to apologize to me.

 

[Hilly]

Frank the wool was bang out of order suggesting that I don't record any or all med treatments to my animals so if you think im going to let him imply that and not challenge him then you are very mistaken.

In all honesty Frank needs to apologize to me.

Chill out man you will have a heart attack.

 

[Henarar]

poor deadweight gain

As much as I enjoy your cryptic posts as the next man, I need a little more to go on.

just wondering what poor deadweight gain was

 

[gone up the hill]

Chill out man you will have a heart attack.

Im chilled

 

[Hilly]

Im chilled

Thats the way ! Am like united nations me ya nar.

 

[Henarar]

Thats the way ! Am like united nations me ya nar.

what Chile ?

 

[JD-Kid]

As for Eid helping to improve growth rates between different farms, complete BS, two farms may have cattle from one farm, one of the buyers pushes the cattle like hell on an intensive system and one uses a grass/ forage based system ( just like the farm where the animal is born could run either system ) so just because the cattle are EID tagged isn't going to give you any usefull info on growth rates on other farms.

can't see how tagging is going to show the seller any thing once sold
be the same as selling a car or tractor at best you may be able to find out online when they have gone
health products if life time like toxo vax's etc should be on file a drench or dipping only held for the year
weights etc would not be recorded on line so no ones going to learn a lot

 

[mo!]

just wondering what poor deadweight gain was

Deadweight at slaughter divided by days lived. It gives a better indication of performance and confirmatio than dlwg.

 

[mo!]

can't see how tagging is going to show the seller any thing once sold
be the same as selling a car or tractor at best you may be able to find out online when they have gone
health products if life time like toxo vax's etc should be on file a drench or dipping only held for the year
weights etc would not be recorded on line so no ones going to learn a lot

The tagging alone won't. The new database will, EID just makes it quicker and more accurate for those who want to benefit. Given that the abattoirs are crying out to get rid of all the paperwork there should be a saving at slaughter. Of course I am not niave enough to think that we will actually see that on the remittance slip.

 

[spin cycle]

can someone disprove GUTH on the paperwork thing?

...i see pigs are going to be exempt...so in an outbreak i can't see the new system helping much....also don't pig units use more AB?

 

[JD-Kid]

The tagging alone won't. The new database will, EID just makes it quicker and more accurate for those who want to benefit. Given that the abattoirs are crying out to get rid of all the paperwork there should be a saving at slaughter. Of course I am not niave enough to think that we will actually see that on the remittance slip.

my guess would be a added cost to up grade plants for tracking etc IT work to make computers link in to data bases etc etc and in big plants haveing a IT guy there incase reader or computers break down

 

[milkloss]

my guess would be a added cost to up grade plants for tracking etc IT work to make computers link in to data bases etc etc and in big plants haveing a IT guy there incase reader or computers break down

Looks like I’m going to have to get me an IT guy! And a secretary, and a health and safety consultant, and a banksman so I don’t back the feeder behind the loader, and a dog poo picker, and a chaperone as the walkers go through cows and calves, and and and and.

It’ll be fine all my costs will get paid as that’s what it costs to produce

 

[Henarar]

Looks like I’m going to have to get me an IT guy! And a secretary, and a health and safety consultant, and a banksman so I don’t back the feeder behind the loader, and a dog poo picker, and a chaperone as the walkers go through cows and caves, and and and and.

It’ll be fine all my costs will get paid as that’s what it costs to produce

that's good then
with all them helping you will have plenty of time to replace EID tags that have fallen out/stopped working
but don't forget to consult the health and safety guy first and get the banks man to see you past the feeder and the chaperone in case someone walks in at the wrong time and get the IT guy to match in the new tag and for goodness sake pickup the poo after [health and safety] I am sure the appropriate poo picker can multitask and don't forget to tell your secretary so they can book your hours

Or you could just name the cow Daisy and say feck to the lot of them
they are all in the dark ages anyway names are the future

 

[The Beef]

Ref the passport screw up. mistakes happen but very poor management/ systems in place on your farm if that can happen

Like I said it was pre EID, it was a mistake, by us, AND the abattoir.
Even with EID, and it is just a management tag presently, it is still possible to get the wrong passport out.
Do tell how you achieve your perfect record keeping. It must be good to be able record all those pesky batch numbers, and expiry dates, without issue. I did notice however that you didn't challenge our clear RPA inspection - mind you don't let facts get in the way of a good rant!

If you read the EID tags the day before they go so you can put the ear tag nums on the paperwork you could still load the wrong animal the next day unless you run each animal up the race and EID read the tags as they are loaded..................................................

Gosh I think you just may have the answer - scan the EID before the cattle go!!!
That's brilliant why didn't someone else think of that!!

And if a farmer needs to consult a vet to give basic meds for basic conditions for every animal they treat then in all honesty they shouldn't be in the care of livestock.

You could be as clever as you like and the best stockman ever, if down the line handing out bottles of AB is not allowed, then what you think will be immaterial! Surely it is better to see a bit further than your nose end and realise that we may just be able to show that with good systems good record keeping we are fit to keep the present. Personally for that reason alone I would willing to do what it takes. It will cost more than £25 / yr @Henarar to "pop to" the vet to get a syringe - that's if they will prescribe without actually seeing the animal.

With regard to your attitude to @Frank-the-Wool why don't you stand yourself and woo voters with your "reasoned" arguments and "forward thinking", not to mention "diplomacy". Just a word of advice don't stamp your feet and have a hissy fit on the platform it might lose a vote or two!

 

[Henarar]

don't stamp your feet and have a hissy fit on the platform it might lose a vote or two!

not doing you much good