New to farming tips, advice and info sources

[georgiienne]

Hello!

In a situation that feels unique, but most probably isn't: clueless non-farmers may be inheriting farm.

My uncle, RS, has been single-handedly running our family farm since my grandfather died several years ago. RS's getting on in years now, and having done so much on his own, he's (smartly) thinking of stepping aside (or at least giving up the major work). The problem is that there have been no youngsters on the farm learning the ropes -- his only son, JC, lived off the farm with his mum and was only around a bit, and my family (mum is RS's sister) moved away when I was young so I have a very outdated, basic knowledge of the farm. We're the only two that really have a bit of interest in helping keep the farm going, but we both know practically nothing. JC is trying to learn what he can from RS, but doesn't live near the farm right now (at college), and I'm in a different time zone entirely.
JC and I are both too old for Young Farmers, and appreciate that on the job experience is the best way to learn, but are there other resources farmers would recommend or look to for basic knowledge? Perhaps some of you have started farming with no background and can share how you learned your way?

I'd like to take a Farm Admin/Secretary course, to get a good idea of the bookkeeping., etc. but would love to know of places I can pick up info in the meantime. YouTube, farming blogs, and the internet have very basic overviews of tasks and procedures, but rarely have lots of detail.

Help??

 

[bar718]

Firstly welcome to the tff, it’s certainly an interesting situation you find yourself in with exciting opportunities ahead. Your uncle will have some good farming friends who he can put you in contact with so you can sit face to face and ask them questions or even your uncle himself as it’s only while actually talking with someone will those little detailed questions come to mind which will need answering.
My first thoughts though may not be well received but I would want to know is the farm owned or tenanted, if tenanted will the landlord let the tenancy continue. If owned, what is the eventual outcome to be with the farm, who will get the keys to it eventually, if shared with your cousin is he someone you can work with or will this all end in tears after years of arguing.
If there is no long term future for you to continue the farm is it worth upsetting your life just to continue it for someone else or even for your uncle just to be able to say he is still a farmer.
Sorry to be so harsh on you but this is a big life changing decision you are taking which may be a brilliant opportunity but also may be your biggest nightmare going and you need to know which it will be before embarking on this journey.

 

[Sandpit Farm]

Further to the above point, it is really important to establish the 'ground rules' from the outset. Succession is a nightmare in established family businesses let alone this type of situation.

You also need to know if it is actually making money or not. If the only money that is being made is the 'in kind' money that should be drawings for your uncle but is put back into the business, you have to seriously consider if you can live like that. There are some straight forward ways to benchmark the profitability of a business. If you want to message me on here, I would be happy to give you some tips and signpost ways you could do it. I imagine that if you ask your uncle if it his profitable, he will say yes.... but is it?

Lastly, and most importantly... you could do with a mentor who isn't your uncle. It would be useful for your uncle to be involved but I would suggest it is also handy to have somebody who can help when it all hits the fan, someone who can advise etc. Practical things like having a second view on something or helping to fix a parlour problem.

If you want to message me, I am happy to help.

 

[georgiienne]

Firstly welcome to the tff, it’s certainly an interesting situation you find yourself in with exciting opportunities ahead. Your uncle will have some good farming friends who he can put you in contact with so you can sit face to face and ask them questions or even your uncle himself as it’s only while actually talking with someone will those little detailed questions come to mind which will need answering.
My first thoughts though may not be well received but I would want to know is the farm owned or tenanted, if tenanted will the landlord let the tenancy continue. If owned, what is the eventual outcome to be with the farm, who will get the keys to it eventually, if shared with your cousin is he someone you can work with or will this all end in tears after years of arguing.
If there is no long term future for you to continue the farm is it worth upsetting your life just to continue it for someone else or even for your uncle just to be able to say he is still a farmer.
Sorry to be so harsh on you but this is a big life changing decision you are taking which may be a brilliant opportunity but also may be your biggest nightmare going and you need to know which it will be before embarking on this journey.

Thanks so much for your reply! I figured there would be key things I left out but don't know enough to know what they are, so thanks for asking.
While I'd readily admit my uncle will have a little network of local farmers (since we're only dairy and I think we just do pretty basic work maintaining the fields for silage, etc -- again, I have *such* poor working knowledge of this), I've never known him to have any 'farming friends'. He's done this gig solo for over a decade now, with only some help from other family when really necessary (but they're all aging too).

I'll also mention now, that I haven't yet reached out to my uncle yet to get info about what our farm does, the specs, profits, etc., because this all happen very quickly and its only just been brought to my attention that he's looking to step down (we knew he would -- he's worked so hard for so long, with no clear end point and no one has ever shown interest in learning/taking over, so I've no idea what our family expected to eventually happen to the farm). At this point, me and the cousin are simply discussing what we do know, and trying to figure out if its something we even want to take on -- we'd hate to bite off more than we can chew, or get anyone's (including the uncle's) hopes up.

I'm fairly certain we own the farm entirely, its been in the family for several generations and passed down on my grandmother's side. I'm not sure if we own all the land, if someone else owns some fields we use, etc. Again, something we'd discuss with the uncle later, for sure.

In terms of the future: I've no idea where the farm would go next. My cousin and I are both in our twenties, no families of our own, so at this point it wouldn't go further than us. My younger sisters has very little history with the farm (born after we moved away), and all other children are our age or older (most are interested in keeping the farm in the family, but not actually helping run it).
In terms of working with my cousin, I obviously can't truly know that yet. Its been a long time since we saw one another, so its a big unknown right now.

I fully appreciate your senisible view of it all -- the hard questions are the ones we need to know, don't know to think about, or will avoid, so its helpful to have someone pointing them out. Hope my answers helped a bit?

 

[georgiienne]

Further to the above point, it is really important to establish the 'ground rules' from the outset. Succession is a nightmare in established family businesses let alone this type of situation.

You also need to know if it is actually making money or not. If the only money that is being made is the 'in kind' money that should be drawings for your uncle but is put back into the business, you have to seriously consider if you can live like that. There are some straight forward ways to benchmark the profitability of a business. If you want to message me on here, I would be happy to give you some tips and signpost ways you could do it. I imagine that if you ask your uncle if it his profitable, he will say yes.... but is it?

Lastly, and most importantly... you could do with a mentor who isn't your uncle. It would be useful for your uncle to be involved but I would suggest it is also handy to have somebody who can help when it all hits the fan, someone who can advise etc. Practical things like having a second view on something or helping to fix a parlour problem.

If you want to message me, I am happy to help.

Thanks for your reply, and your wonderful offer to help out. If this continues to move forward, we may take you up on it for some 'Farming for Dummies' advice.

In terms of profit, I agree that we'll need to have a proper, unbiased assessment of what the business looks like. We'd hate to take on something that's struggling or just getting by, and thus heightening our chances of ruining it. Definitely agree that uncle, as the one running it, may see it as better than it is (to justify all his hard work), so we'd definitely want to make sure its not only his opinion we get.

A mentor sounds like a great idea -- not something I would've thought was common in farming (outside Young Farmers-type orgs, at least). Would be great to have someone we'd be able to ring up or have over for second looks/opinions or just silly questions!

 

[Sandpit Farm]

Thanks for your reply, and your wonderful offer to help out. If this continues to move forward, we may take you up on it for some 'Farming for Dummies' advice.

In terms of profit, I agree that we'll need to have a proper, unbiased assessment of what the business looks like. We'd hate to take on something that's struggling or just getting by, and thus heightening our chances of ruining it. Definitely agree that uncle, as the one running it, may see it as better than it is (to justify all his hard work), so we'd definitely want to make sure its not only his opinion we get.

A mentor sounds like a great idea -- not something I would've thought was common in farming (outside Young Farmers-type orgs, at least). Would be great to have someone we'd be able to ring up or have over for second looks/opinions or just silly questions!

The British Grassland Society have a mentor scheme to help with grazing, grass measuring etc. If you wanted a mentor for general 'dairy' stuff, it may be worth seeing if a good local farmer would be happy to do it if you cover some expenses or some such.

 

[Princess Pooper]

Go to as many AHDB dairy meetings as possible and use their youtube channel there is masses of information available all free. You will also meet other farmers at the meetings. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvPCcP9lZtYN4dcyrxyuQcQ

http://www.dairy.ahdb.org.uk/
Good luck

 

[Dry Rot]

Are there no agricultural advisors any more? The Scottish Agricultural College was very helpful to me but then I only took over a small acreage.

My first thoughts would be for the livestock if you've no experience. Surely a cattleman somewhere who could do with a working holiday? They say a change is as good as a rest.

If it was me, the bloody books and tax man would have to wait! Livestock can't. Then maybe cropping.

 

[georgiienne]

Go to as many AHDB dairy meetings as possible and use their youtube channel there is masses of information available all free. You will also meet other farmers at the meetings. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvPCcP9lZtYN4dcyrxyuQcQ

http://www.dairy.ahdb.org.uk/
Good luck

This looks like a wonderful resource, thank you for sharing!

 

[Clay52]

First just a warning. Make sure you are doing it for the right reasons.

There are much easier ways to make money. For most people diary is a terrible investment compared to what else is out there and thats people with lots of dairy experience.

If you are starting out on a small farm. It will be your life. You’ll be lucky to have much of a life outside of dairy farming.

Make sure you really want to do this.

 

[onesiedale]

If the farm business does prove to have the scale / potential then maybe a structured joint venture with a herds manager with a good record may be another option. This would reduce the risk going forward, keep your uncle involved and allow you and your cousin to be mentored over a period to see if it really is the right move for the future.

 

[Einstien]

Rent it out..... Let some other poor mug do all the work, go enjoy spending the money!

 

[cornishfarmer]

Are you in the states or Australia? Very well corded question. Easy path steer well clear.
Medium path look into it do research find out everything you can then steer well clear. Hard path. Take on loose all savings and wish you had steered well clear!!!!!
In all seriousness it’s like asking a farmer to take on a restaurant, a care home or a mine it’s a huge commitment and have to ask yourself why are you doing it? Is it to keep family farm going? Is it to make a living? Or is it to keep until he dies then sell to make money?
Sounds like a classic college question

 

[georgiienne]

Are there no agricultural advisors any more? The Scottish Agricultural College was very helpful to me but then I only took over a small acreage.

My first thoughts would be for the livestock if you've no experience. Surely a cattleman somewhere who could do with a working holiday? They say a change is as good as a rest.

If it was me, the bloody books and tax man would have to wait! Livestock can't. Then maybe cropping.

Hi Dry Rot!

I think this is my and the cuz's main concern too: we have handling experience, but just not the experience (we aren't knowledgeable enough to see 'early warning signs', or intuitively know solutions (common sense we're good at, but that only helps so much)! I have lots of horse experience, some of which translates to cows (lameness, dehydration, behavioural, injections/injury, etc) but most doesn't (I'd never heard of milk fever until a month ago)...
Someone below mentioned bringing in someone (a 'herdsman'?) to help manage the farm, allowing uncle to take a step back, and cuz and I to have more time to learn (plus the bonus of learning another person's approach?). Sounds smart?

I've been eyeing the books/admin side of things, as I think my main strength would be there (until I got more hands-on experience). I took accounting so feel like I at least have something to offer in that way.

 

[georgiienne]

First just a warning. Make sure you are doing it for the right reasons.

There are much easier ways to make money. For most people diary is a terrible investment compared to what else is out there and thats people with lots of dairy experience.

If you are starting out on a small farm. It will be your life. You’ll be lucky to have much of a life outside of dairy farming.

Make sure you really want to do this.

Hi Clay! I appreciate all practical responses

I do wonder if there are 'good reasons' for doing anything in agriculture (or maybe even all production businesses, in general?). We don't expect to come out as millionaires (or remotely close to!) but would like to be positive and think we could make the right changes to make it profitable (as it has been for several generations). I don't think we expect it to be easy, especially considering our limited background. I dunno if this situation is all that different than families that were 'forced' into farming due to an illness or death of the farmer though?

I've been curious though, what do people consider to be 'small farms' now? There will obviously be a range, but i'm interested to know what people think they are. We'd be expecting to start small until we have a few years under our belts and uncle is finally off on holiday in Venecia or wherever!

 

[georgiienne]

If the farm business does prove to have the scale / potential then maybe a structured joint venture with a herds manager with a good record may be another option. This would reduce the risk going forward, keep your uncle involved and allow you and your cousin to be mentored over a period to see if it really is the right move for the future.

This sounds like one of the best options to me! Someone with experience to oversee (without us having to pester uncle with questions every hour!) and allowing us to learn the ropes and a different approach.

Would this be as simple (in theory, I realise good farm workers are not easy to come by or keep), as hiring someone looking for a position as a herd manager (I assume 'herd' suggests they're only responsible for cattle-specific duties, so paperwork & other farm work would be separate? Would that be considered a 'farm manager'?) or are there certain routes people take to set up this sort of arrangement? Apologies if these are silly questions, I just don't know what resources there are for finding farm workers & networking, etc.

 

[georgiienne]

Rent it out..... Let some other poor mug do all the work, go enjoy spending the money!

As its something our family has never done before, I don't think we've considered this, but would be up to talk to anyone that has if they'd want to share their experience doing it!

 

[Farmer Bogass]

Hi Dry Rot!

I think this is my and the cuz's main concern too: we have handling experience, but just not the experience (we aren't knowledgeable enough to see 'early warning signs', or intuitively know solutions (common sense we're good at, but that only helps so much)! I have lots of horse experience, some of which translates to cows (lameness, dehydration, behavioural, injections/injury, etc) but most doesn't (I'd never heard of milk fever until a month ago)...
Someone below mentioned bringing in someone (a 'herdsman'?) to help manage the farm, allowing uncle to take a step back, and cuz and I to have more time to learn (plus the bonus of learning another person's approach?). Sounds smart?

I've been eyeing the books/admin side of things, as I think my main strength would be there (until I got more hands-on experience). I took accounting so feel like I at least have something to offer in that way.

You can't just jump in and hire a herdsman if it's set up as a one man band. You will have wages to pay and the business will need to support it. If money is an issue either yourself or your cousin could work elsewhere bringing in a wage to cover the herdsman wages who you can learn off then that could work short term.

When my family inherited our farm, it fell on me too. Difference was it was a large dairy business, with the main farm for cattle with a parlour and housing as well as grazing land for up to 650 Milkers (475 currently running). On that farm we also rear freisan bull calves from good sires which are either sold for AI after a year or swapped for other bulls for us to use. The bull calves and heifers from our Hereford stock bull are sold at 12 weeks and replacements also bred, a few from AI and rest to the dairy bull. The infrastructure was inadequate when taken on, and big investments had to be made for new housing, fencing and a 48 point rotary parlour to future proof the business.

Our other farm of is 20 miles down and is for feed production. We have a farm manager at that site who operates it, and haulage from that farm to here costs money.

Because of that, there are 3 staff and myself. But we are also part of a small farming group, with a pool of staff who cover for relief milking and other work. We had the income to support that, but I suspect your uncles is a smaller farm, and therefore turnover lower.

A good starting point is to get a full audit of the business done first and foremost, that covers everything from A to Z. From those results you can see how the business is operating and see the good, bad and the ugly to avoid nasty surprises.

Once you have done that, come back on here with your findings as then solid advice can be given tailored to that business model, and can advise on next steps if the business is in good order.

 

[georgiienne]

Are you in the states or Australia? Very well corded question. Easy path steer well clear.
Medium path look into it do research find out everything you can then steer well clear. Hard path. Take on loose all savings and wish you had steered well clear!!!!!
In all seriousness it’s like asking a farmer to take on a restaurant, a care home or a mine it’s a huge commitment and have to ask yourself why are you doing it? Is it to keep family farm going? Is it to make a living? Or is it to keep until he dies then sell to make money?
Sounds like a classic college question

I'm in Canada, at the moment, several years out of uni and working (job, not career). Farm is in SW England.

Our motivations?: definitely mostly to keep the farm going (''its gone on this long, so why throw it all away now?''). Me and cuz also have no places of our own, and are out of uni with no career prospects -- we love the farm, owe it a lot, and wish to see it carry on. We appreciate this is rather 'blind' of us, but it seems many people start farming (by choice, or due to farmer death or illness) with little practical experience? As for future, neither of us can say. We don't know enough about farming to know about dairy-business decisions, have never followed the dairy market (all things uncle is relatively good at), so we'd be taking instruction from uncle (or a mentor, if/when uncle retires) until we 'found our feet' and knew enough to decide what direction we wish to go. In terms of succession after us? None at this point, as neither of us have families.

 

[Clay52]

“It’s gone on this long” is a terrible reason to run a business.

People get into trouble because they don’t look at running a farm like they would if they were buying into any other business.