News: Group of men caught hare coursing banned from farm land across four counties

@teslacoils and @farmerm

Those carrying out these rural crimes are known to travel to different areas to carry out their illegal activities. Their tactic is, one group carries out target selection and reconnaissance in their own area (but don't do anything illegal, or at least no serious offence), and then pass the information over to another group from out of the area; and vice versa.

The objective been to minimise the chance of been identified, tracked and caught, as they are not known to the police in the area where the offence takes place.

So yes, these Criminal Behaviour Orders do have limitations, but it is one way to disrupt and prevent crime; especially given that the sentence for breaking a CBO can be greater than the original offence committed.
 
Rozzers said they knew which pikey encampment to go to, but they wouldn't go as 'it wasn't safe to do so'!

FFS!

Yeah, I find that totally shocking how risk averse the police have become. That said, they didn't have the appropriate resources available to be assigned to the task - which I also find rather bewildering.

I know that North Yorkshire are changing their rural policing, and specialist units will become available to support rural policing.

One of the problems we have, there is a national strategy for Wildlife Crime and Rural Affairs, but there isn't a national police approach, prioritisation and standardisation towards rural crime by the different police forces across the country. Some force areas are doing better than others.
 

Lincoln75

Member
If you dont they just keep coming back. I'd always advocate trying to stop crime - as said, you wouldn't walk away from a woman getting raped or a granny getting robbed.

If the ordinary citizen can't, and the police won't, get involved, then we're fuuked.
Get involved if you think you are up to a brawl as it may happen , good fun if you come off on top ,usually painful if not :) , you can also shoot the dogs if they are in the act of worrying or attacking livestock , get good with your rifle , easier ways are to remove the tyre valves out of unattended vehicles , set some trail cams , well hidden or they get nicked , you can ones that text an image almost instantly to your phone for a couple of hundred quid, vehicle removal with a telehandler can also be quite deterring , just make sure it belongs to the poachers not some old dear who`s broken down :) .
 
If you dont they just keep coming back. I'd always advocate trying to stop crime - as said, you wouldn't walk away from a woman getting raped or a granny getting robbed.

If the ordinary citizen can't, and the police won't, get involved, then we're fuuked.

It depends on the context of the situation. An object getting stolen is different to a person in distress and their safety. They are are two separate scenarios.

My concern is lack of conflict management training, knowledge of the law (and its limitations), experience and exposure to incidents; and even some form of self-defence/situational awareness training.

Some people can quite easily find themselves out of their depth very rapidly.
 
Get involved if you think you are up to a brawl as it may happen , good fun if you come off on top ,usually painful if not :) , you can also shoot the dogs if they are in the act of worrying or attacking livestock , get good with your rifle , easier ways are to remove the tyre valves out of unattended vehicles , set some trail cams , well hidden or they get nicked , you can ones that text an image almost instantly to your phone for a couple of hundred quid, vehicle removal with a telehandler can also be quite deterring , just make sure it belongs to the poachers not some old dear who`s broken down :) .

As arse as it is, two wrongs don't make a right, unfortunately:

 

teslacoils

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
When folk and the police turn a blind eye. This is not about lack of resources - it's lack of will to tackle a problem. Plod have adequate resources. Ffs there are cameras all over the county. It shouldn't be difficult.

To think I was apologising to the police for wasting their time!
 

Lincoln75

Member
As arse as it is, two wrongs don't make a right, unfortunately:

They are both the same incident , guess the farmer lost it and didn't use his loaf , he should have been a bit more discrete .
 
When folk and the police turn a blind eye. This is not about lack of resources - it's lack of will to tackle a problem. Plod have adequate resources. Ffs there are cameras all over the county. It shouldn't be difficult.

To think I was apologising to the police for wasting their time!

Yes and no.

Yes, the police force as whole have the resources, but they are under the control of different departments with different budgets and assigned tasks by different commanders.

No, the rural crime teams have limited access to these resources to manage the risks, and limited budget to pay for the operations, such as specialist units, additional officers, equipment, etc., to go raiding a traveller site.

It's a "silo" approach, empires within an empire so to speak. I hate it. You'd think that a police force with one aim would work as one team, but it's not quite like that... departmental budgets, equipment, staffing/overtime, command and control, priority of tasks, politics, etc..

Hence why I keep harping on about funding and resources - so the rural crime team get what they need, in their own department instead of beg borrowing and stealing from others. But, for the rural crime teams to get the much needed funding and resources the police head-sheds and local/national government need accurate facts and figures relating to incident numbers and impact, so that they can say: "the rural crime teams need XYZ funds, to manage and reduce ABC criminal activity", to put it in simple terms.

The squeaky wheel gets the oil. And farmers and rural communities have not been making enough noise.

So as much as the bobbies that come out to respond to you want to do as much as they can, they have their hands tied, limited by what their options are.

We need to help the police, to help you, by reporting anything and everything relating to rural crime. The figures start to stack up.
 
Last edited:

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
You are right, my mistake (brain fart) which I realised but then could no longer edit.

I may be wrong but I think police forces can only apply to the court for CBO's in their jurisdiction.

Section 333, sub-section 5 is possibly where the limitations arise.



Obviously, nationwide restrictions would be much better, though the police can only act inside the available laws set by parliament.
sometimes the law is an ass... its not like we are a massive country, the cant be anyone much more than an hours drive outside the force area in which they reside so you are right to call them community behavioral orders!

Well to meet with that legislation do we not simply need a figurehead "National Chief of Police" who's police area is The UK.....
 
sometimes the law is an ass...

I totally agree. The laws need changing, without a doubt.

Well to meet with that legislation do we not simply need a figurehead "National Chief of Police" who's police area is The UK.....

I think the Met Commissioner is seen as the country's most senior police officer. But other than the National Crime Agency, which remit does not include rural crime, there isn't any nationwide enforcement; the best we have at the moment is some regional collaboration.
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
I totally agree. The laws need changing, without a doubt.



I think the Met Commissioner is seen as the country's most senior police officer. But other than the National Crime Agency, which remit does not include rural crime, there isn't any nationwide enforcement; the best we have at the moment is some regional collaboration.
"which remit does not include rural crime" and why the bloody hell not.... :mad:
 
"which remit does not include rural crime" and why the bloody hell not.... :mad:
The NCA is focused on international arms dealing, drug trafficking, slavery, kidnap & extortion, child sex abuse, and such like.

Rural crime is supposed to be managed by the individual police forces. Obviously theft convictions has more appropriate sentencing, but until laws are changed, bringing harsher consequences for poaching, coursing, lamping, etc., we are going to have to rely on these CBO's to give the police the option of taking things further if the offenders are caught again, including prison sentences.

Not ideal, but the police can only do what they can with what options they have.
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
The NCA is focused on international arms dealing, drug trafficking, slavery, kidnap & extortion, child sex abuse, and such like.

Rural crime is supposed to be managed by the individual police forces. Obviously theft convictions has more appropriate sentencing, but until laws are changed, bringing harsher consequences for poaching, coursing, lamping, etc., we are going to have to rely on these CBO's to give the police the option of taking things further if the offenders are caught again, including prison sentences.

Not ideal, but the police can only do what they can with what options they have.
they could use the option of turning a blind eye when people cross the line when defending their homes and property..... :unsure:
 

Lincoln75

Member
Unfortunately farms are going to have to catch up with the security levels as seen on industrial estates , high fencing around the entire farm yard , sheds securely locked at night ,alarm systems on sheds and diesel bunds , cameras and in some cases night watchmen , you would never see a plant yard with an open gate and shed doors left unlocked at night .
 
Unfortunately farms are going to have to catch up with the security levels as seen on industrial estates , high fencing around the entire farm yard , sheds securely locked at night ,alarm systems on sheds and diesel bunds , cameras and in some cases night watchmen , you would never see a plant yard with an open gate and shed doors left unlocked at night .

It need not necessarily have to be to such a huge extent; but, the efforts of farmers and rural communities need to match (or exceed) the efforts of the criminals, and this is not often taking place, and farmers and rural communities need to up their game somewhat.

Your responsibility may begin at your perimeter fence, but your security starts in the surrounding area with eyes and ears checking for suspicious behaviour (thieves scouting for opportunity) before an unwanted incident occurs; or being out and about on an evening identifying and reporting unusual activity for the police (who you will be under the guidance and supervision of) to respond. Setting up, and joining rural watch / rural crime volunteer groups and information/intelligence WhatsApp groups are very effective, and go a long way to reducing costs, as described in your post.

Volunteer groups costs are negligible but it does require a little commitment of time, but your security then becomes a shared burden/workload and it becomes in everyone's interests to look out for each other; and feedback from such schemes in Northumbria where this has been very successful, indicate that it also helps to recreate that lost sense of community.

People can't cry about a problem, and then not do anything or not contribute to the solution. People don't want to hear it, but they have to put up or shut up.

Too see how these rural crime volunteer groups operate, see this video👇, and if such a thing does not exist in your area, then speak to your local police to see about setting it up.
 
Last edited:

teslacoils

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
Police need to engage to say what evidence they require, and what the legal limits are to what we can do on our own property as regards stopping a vehicle being able to leave etc. Saying "just give us a ring" is a bit poor if response times are 30+ mins. I can drive to two different counties in half an hour.
 

uztrac

Member
Location
fakenham-norfolk
I totally agree. The laws need changing, without a doubt.



I think the Met Commissioner is seen as the country's most senior police officer. But other than the National Crime Agency, which remit does not include rural crime, there isn't any nationwide enforcement; the best we have at the moment is some regional collaboration.
If the met is seen as the most senior police officer then heaven help us.I have lost all faith in the established "police force". I did manage to be a witness for the prosecution in a recent hare coursing incident here in Norfolk. The guilty parties came from around Heathrow airport. Just a slap on the wrist for them,and are probably back already in business.
 
If the met is seen as the most senior police officer then heaven help us.I have lost all faith in the established "police force". I did manage to be a witness for the prosecution in a recent hare coursing incident here in Norfolk. The guilty parties came from around Heathrow airport. Just a slap on the wrist for them,and are probably back already in business.

The Met Commissioner is regarded as the most senior officer, but has no jurisdiction outside the Met area, so he has no bearing on what happens in Norfolk, just because the offender comes from Heathrow. A lot of people have lost faith in the police forces, though they don't make the laws, they just enforce them as per their (and the CPS's) interpretation of the law; and they don't set their own budgets.

That said, there are a lot of avoidable issues in my opinion - training, standardisation across the forces, basic SOP's - especially the effective recording and sharing of information and intelligence regionally and nationally, community and private sector engagement, and the list could go on. They have a difficult job to do what they can with what they've got, but sometimes they make it difficult for themselves.

When was the hare coursing incident? Laws on sentencing are changing on this.
 

CHAP Webinar - Innovative tools to overcome the challenges of Regen Ag

  • 200
  • 0
https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.evbuc.com%2Fimages%2F186160299%2F486662465563%2F1%2Foriginal.20211115-160823


Applying principles of regen ag can incur a range of on-farm challenges. Learn how innovative tools & machinery can help with these hurdles.

This event will be held online from 1pm to 2pm on Thursday 2nd December 2021 so please block it out in your diary.

About this event​

Intro
This...
Top