Next bull for suckler herd

[tr250]

Glad you have sociable Salers. I scan quite a few pure and crossbred saler cows ( few thousand) and i would have a limo over them any day. They are very dangerous cattle to handle as they would walk through you and have no fear. Saying that i would love a pen of those lovely orange char x calves to sell. Apart from their temperament they make great cows. Most people put up with them and everyone i know has them will tell you they are knobs BUT....

They do seem quite clever and witty I’ve never known cows that seem to look where they put their feet. Ours are always first in the race etc but I can’t say they are dangerous because I think they are more predictable than if they were flighty. Possibly we have bought them off a breeder that isn’t afraid to pay £8-10k for a bull find it’s got a fault and kill it along with all it’s calves

 

[johnspeehs]

Glad you have sociable Salers. I scan quite a few pure and crossbred saler cows ( few thousand) and i would have a limo over them any day. They are very dangerous cattle to handle as they would walk through you and have no fear. Saying that i would love a pen of those lovely orange char x calves to sell. Apart from their temperament they make great cows. Most people put up with them and everyone i know has them will tell you they are knobs BUT....

You are spot on there, the ones i have among my cows are just like that, they would walk over the top of you but in no way wild. i have no problem with them at calving, I just stay away from them, you soon learn you're not as quick as you think you are.

 

[case44]

If you are getting older and more cautious like me,Then a Angus bull maybe an option.
I have sold my Lim bull and all BBx and Limx cows have been put to Angus this year,will miss Lim x quality but not tricky calvings and wild weanlings.

 

[Archie]

Sorry if taking thread further of topic but is anyone else finding Simmentals have become wilder as the breed has changed colour to the darker red type most seem to be now or have I just been unlucky?

Been keeping our own replacement ones for 35 years but been having to cull out a temperament problem since buying such a bull in 2012. Unsure if his similarly coloured replacement is producing calves the same or whether they are getting it through their mothers by the 2012 bull

 

[tr250]

You are spot on there, the ones i have among my cows are just like that, they would walk over the top of you but in no way wild. i have no problem with them at calving, I just stay away from them, you soon learn you're not as quick as you think you are.

Yes they just want to be left alone for 24hours after calving we find

 

[DefenderDave]

What features were disappointing about the calves?

They just don’t grow anywhere near as well as the bullocks or heifers from the Simmental bull.

Assume you wish to keep the heifers or some of them to bull?
If you don’t want another Sim due to cow size but want to maintain the value of the calves then possibly consider an moderately framed Angus. Then back to Sim. Or stick with Sim and buy Lim cross bulling heifers which I assume is what you have been doing up to now.
If it’s a purely terminal cross then Charolais.

when the dairy herd was sold here, some of the limx heifers were kept back. We run a closed herd in a high Tb area otherwise I would consider buying bulling heifers in. How would the Angus’s perform on barley bull beef finishing? What would a Canadian Angus be like on this system?
Ideally we would put them to a BB or char but as we keep some of the heifers back we wouldn’t want a hard calving cow.

Why was the saler picked in the first place? Was it for herd replacements or as a terminal sire? In my opinion they make good cows ans are brilliant on heifers but are not good enough for a terminal sire that’s why most people put a charalais bull on them

Both, although the salers which have been kept as replacements haven’t reached calving yet so can’t comment on their ability as a mother. I would say that they seem reasonably calm at the moment, but all could change when they start to calve.

 

[milkloss]

Sorry if taking thread further of topic but is anyone else finding Simmentals have become wilder as the breed has changed colour to the darker red type most seem to be now or have I just been unlucky?

Been keeping our own replacement ones for 35 years but been having to cull out a temperament problem since buying such a bull in 2012. Unsure if his similarly coloured replacement is producing calves the same or whether they are getting it through their mothers by the 2012 bull

Yes, we have noticed. Having ran two bulls side by side, a dark and a light, we have seen a difference. Have a few that will come across the yard to see us off when they've calved but I couldn't honestly say for sure which bull may have introduced this to the herd. Give them a few days and they're fine or at least much more manageable.

 

[tr250]

They just don’t grow anywhere near as well as the bullocks or heifers from the Simmental bull.



when the dairy herd was sold here, some of the limx heifers were kept back. We run a closed herd in a high Tb area otherwise I would consider buying bulling heifers in. How would the Angus’s perform on barley bull beef finishing? What would a Canadian Angus be like on this system?
Ideally we would put them to a BB or char but as we keep some of the heifers back we wouldn’t want a hard calving cow.



Both, although the salers which have been kept as replacements haven’t reached calving yet so can’t comment on their ability as a mother. I would say that they seem reasonably calm at the moment, but all could change when they start to calve.

Might also be your a step further away from the Holstein which is a huge cow with lots of milk. Limx with a sim bull on would be hard to beat trouble is you can’t get them without a dairy herd

 

[Matthew Britton]

If you go down the Charolais route maybe try a few ai straws first. We are right in the middle of Charolais country here, normally they are docile which is nice but calving problems put us off before we started so we bought a Limousin herd. My mate who was here before calves 200 Charolais, when I saw him last January I think he said he had had 25 c sections last calving. I reckon he has to pull about 25percent of his calves and that is fairly normal around here. Not sure about you but not my idea of fun!

 

[milkloss]

If you go down the Charolais route maybe try a few ai straws first. We are right in the middle of Charolais country here, normally they are docile which is nice but calving problems put us off before we started so we bought a Limousin herd. My mate who was here before calves 200 Charolais, when I saw him last January I think he said he had had 25 c sections last calving. I reckon he has to pull about 25percent of his calves and that is fairly normal around here. Not sure about you but not my idea of fun!

This comes up every now and again but I can only speak of our experience. Original beef herd is out of a char bull on our friesian based milker. We went too char and they started losing milk so went back to a sim and now we've introduced another char along side the sims. Sussex is run on the heifers Who calve at two.

c sections only occur once over two years on a long term average on 150 odd cows. Last one was a sim heifer with a Sussex calf. Before that it was a sim calf out of a big old Sussex. It's usually down to weaning and feeding that would cause a c section here. I can't remember the last difficult calving that someone would comment specifically about the char breed, sure, we do get a few 'big dopey' charlies but as a rule they calve on their own...... get the head and shoulders out and the rest will pull itself provided you've got some good cows that are active calvers.

from my experience I reckon we have it right this side of the Channel and we've actually improved the Charolais compared to our Continental friends efforts! I've seen modern Sussex that I d shy away from more with their big heads and shoulders.

My old man would say 'little head and shoulders.... and a big arse and they'll be fine'

 

[Hesstondriver]

im going to be bias here, but i think you will be fine with another simmy . do you know the breeding of your current stock bull ?

 

[Whitepeak]

oh dear... I was going to suggest Blonde or Bazadaise. but they are worse tendancy to be flighty than the Lim.


Are you REALLY sure you don't want to just cross a bit more Lim in there??

Disagree on the Blondes being flighty, only this week did the market drover comment on how quite our Blonde stock are. If anything our worse stock are the ones with any Lim blood in them.

Its strange how Blondes have such a reputation here for temperament, yet in Australia, Canada and US they are sold as being quite temperament.

 

[Matthew Britton]

This comes up every now and again but I can only speak of our experience. Original beef herd is out of a char bull on our friesian based milker. We went too char and they started losing milk so went back to a sim and now we've introduced another char along side the sims. Sussex is run on the heifers Who calve at two.

c sections only occur once over two years on a long term average on 150 odd cows. Last one was a sim heifer with a Sussex calf. Before that it was a sim calf out of a big old Sussex. It's usually down to weaning and feeding that would cause a c section here. I can't remember the last difficult calving that someone would comment specifically about the char breed, sure, we do get a few 'big dopey' charlies but as a rule they calve on their own...... get the head and shoulders out and the rest will pull itself provided you've got some good cows that are active calvers.

from my experience I reckon we have it right this side of the Channel and we've actually improved the Charolais compared to our Continental friends efforts! I've seen modern Sussex that I d shy away from more with their big heads and shoulders.

My old man would say 'little head and shoulders.... and a big arse and they'll be fine'

I guess over here there is the pride factor that this is the home of the breed and they do like to keep their cows big and fat. Which won’t help. Nor will them being pure bred, at least with the cross bred you take some of the more extreme traits out.

 

[Henarar]

Ideally we would put them to a BB or char but as we keep some of the heifers back we wouldn’t want a hard calving cow.

What would you class as a hard calving cow ? having to assist any of them ?
We run all sorts of cows and wouldn't find the British Blues or Blue crosses any more hard calving than anything else, we have had a few char cross cows as well and they were not a problem

 

[Henarar]

Disagree on the Blondes being flighty, only this week did the market drover comment on how quite our Blonde stock are. If anything our worse stock are the ones with any Lim blood in them.

Its strange how Blondes have such a reputation here for temperament, yet in Australia, Canada and US they are sold as being quite temperament.

like the lim's they sent all the mad ones over here

 

[Matthew Britton]

like the lim's they sent all the mad ones over here

Not all of them, I still have a few, especially after they have calved!

 

[Agrivator]

Cattle are usually as wild as the man looking after them.

And a very able stockman reckons Salers are the ideal suckler cow, apart for their temperament. My own opinion is that Limousins would be the ideal suckler cow if they were a bit milkier.

 

[Woolless]

This comes up every now and again but I can only speak of our experience. Original beef herd is out of a char bull on our friesian based milker. We went too char and they started losing milk so went back to a sim and now we've introduced another char along side the sims. Sussex is run on the heifers Who calve at two.

c sections only occur once over two years on a long term average on 150 odd cows. Last one was a sim heifer with a Sussex calf. Before that it was a sim calf out of a big old Sussex. It's usually down to weaning and feeding that would cause a c section here. I can't remember the last difficult calving that someone would comment specifically about the char breed, sure, we do get a few 'big dopey' charlies but as a rule they calve on their own...... get the head and shoulders out and the rest will pull itself provided you've got some good cows that are active calvers.

from my experience I reckon we have it right this side of the Channel and we've actually improved the Charolais compared to our Continental friends efforts! I've seen modern Sussex that I d shy away from more with their big heads and shoulders.

My old man would say 'little head and shoulders.... and a big arse and they'll be fine'

Best Charolais bull I've ever seen was when we were on holiday in Normandy 20 years ago. I always think of them as tops for growth/size but lacking a little shape compared to their rivals.

Surprised that no-one has mentioned a Stabiliser? Pick a bull on EBVs to do the job you want it to do.

 

[DefenderDave]

What would you class as a hard calving cow ? having to assist any of them ?
We run all sorts of cows and wouldn't find the British Blues or Blue crosses any more hard calving than anything else, we have had a few char cross cows as well and they were not a problem

Anything that has intervention, wouldn’t have to assist more that 1-2 cows a year out of 60, god forbid the thought of having to get the vet out for a C-section

Thinking out loud could you ai a few cows a year for replacements, and alternate between a simmy (or even limmy) and a beefy dairy breed such as a monty? Then put these to a terminal sire for finishing The calves?

 

[JSmith]

If you want to keep heifers and are looking to quiet the cows down a beef shorthorn goes nice on a simmy and come Lemmon and white so not funny coloured!! Make lovely milky mother’s and put to any bull you like, male calves finish well too, no extreme shape but why need that in the cows any way!