NFU & HLS / ELS payments.

[Timbo]

The evidence that shows the due date for HLS payments will be difficult to find. It was understood that the handbook relevant to the start date of the agreement states, for us the the Second Edition October 2008 HLS handbook states on page 2 that we ' will receive a payment every six months from the start of your agreement for its duration'
That has not been the case. The payment dates were all aligned, resulting in a common start date, but even so, this basic part of the rule book has not been adhered to. One year we received one payment. Payments, we thought then fell into a payment window; January to June 30th for the first half of the previous years agreement, then 1st July to 31st December for the top up, this then changed with the idea of the payment being split 75% and 25%, for us it has meant more money tied up for longer whilst RPA look at mapping and run their system checks.

Whilst I hope a test case is taken, what better proof than the original handbook that formed part of an agreement?

However, as in the same handbook, page 37; 'vary your agreement in line with changes to European law and in other exceptional circumstances.'

Trouble is, where is this pursued? Natural England are dead in the water and the Rural Payments Agency will quite possibly pass the buck. It will be left hanging, with no resolution.

@Guy Smith

I welcome your comments to the above.

 

[The Son]

The evidence that shows the due date for HLS payments will be difficult to find. It was understood that the handbook relevant to the start date of the agreement states, for us the the Second Edition October 2008 HLS handbook states on page 2 that we ' will receive a payment every six months from the start of your agreement for its duration'
That has not been the case. The payment dates were all aligned, resulting in a common start date, but even so, this basic part of the rule book has not been adhered to. One year we received one payment. Payments, we thought then fell into a payment window; January to June 30th for the first half of the previous years agreement, then 1st July to 31st December for the top up, this then changed with the idea of the payment being split 75% and 25%, for us it has meant more money tied up for longer whilst RPA look at mapping and run their system checks.

Whilst I hope a test case is taken, what better proof than the original handbook that formed part of an agreement?

However, as in the same handbook, page 37; 'vary your agreement in line with changes to European law and in other exceptional circumstances.'

Trouble is, where is this pursued? Natural England are dead in the water and the Rural Payments Agency will quite possibly pass the buck. It will be left hanging, with no resolution.

I am on the same HLS scheme, starting August 2009 payments started off ok, but have been constantly messed around with as explained above.

My secretary and I decided to try and work out where we were with payments and struggled to get an accurate picture, so I phoned RPA got phoned back by a very helpful lady who said we are due to get our 2017 payment within a fortnight as they were working on it.

Last Tuesday I was rung and told an inspector would be with me 9 am the following morning. He came, his maps were all wrong, with wrong field numbers and and capital items in the wrong place, we managed to work through it and everything seemed OK, but he now writes a report which will be well over 100 pages he said, so I can't see any money in the near future.

The scheme has been benficial to the wildlife on the farm, and I am keen to sign up to the next scheme, but will not sign up to any scheme without legally binding payment terms.

 

[livestock 1]

It is 95% of the fund rather than the population. While there is a big differential in these two fields when the payment is at less than 75%, once you get above 90% things narrow so there's not much difference. I'm surprised to hear of problems with the commons because compared to previous years, things do seem pretty quiet and it's good to see the Minchinhampton top UKs finally done.

If you are an NFU member, if you want to direct message me about your issues I can forward things to the team. It helps us keep tabs on what is happening.

Generally BPS payment delivery seems as good as I've known it since it was introduced in 2014/15 but that's not to say it is satisfactory and we haven't forgotten those who are still waiting.

Hi Guy

Thanks. I am an NFU member thanks for the offer. I use my local agent for various issues I think I’ve given him enough headaches for the time being to sort out. I have one of my land agents viewing the progress of the claim if we get stuck I will keep you in mind. What I’m hearing from him is many claims with commons and large claims are still unpaid. Often some claims with commons are pushed to the back due to their complications and large claims pushed back for obvious reasons. My common land has many other graziers on it so if there is complications with one it may have a domino effect as it has happened before. Also had an inspection in August and stewardship inspection in October all ok and signed off the inspectors did assure me that they would be no delay due to them.

 

[egbert]

It’s time they stop fking about and ditch the flawed IT system.

The RPA need a KISS,

- A Keep It Simple System

Accept that the cost of adminstrating tiny mapping changes to existing agreements is pointless and not a cost effective use of resources. Accept that any credibility in future government administered environmental schemes is being eroded beyond repair.

Simply pay up based on the areas that are on the original agreements!!

I hereby offer, for free my services to the RPA.

If they would kindly send me a spreadsheet populated with just 4 columns of Mid-Tier agreement data

Agreement number
Agreement start date
Total claim value over 5 years
Amount paid to date.

I can within minutes send it back showing what is currently overdue and a payment schedule for the remainder of each agreement based on each 1/5 becoming due on the annerversary of the agreement.

It just needs a spreadsheet, not bloody rocket science.

that'd never do, they might come under pressure to send payment toot sweet! Imagine!.....the very thought. Go and wash your mouth out with soap

 

[egbert]

Oh yes let's blame the NFU for government incompetence, why not

hang on...it's right to quiz the NFU as to what they are doing, and what help they can render, isn't it?

 

[egbert]

Even if the fine print allowed them to not pay, having the contract scrutinised by a court could be interesting - they might be of the opinion that its a one sided contract and declare it 'unconscionable' and thus unenforceable:

http://www.cebta.org.uk/an-unconscionable-contract/

hmmm....what options do i have (CS hls annual payment late)? I could opt out of the contract because payment is late.....and that sounds pretty unlikely given how much money is involved, and what else I could do with so many hundred hectares of moorland.
Are we going back to the days of hitching up a plough, or tracking a digger out onto the rough?
That's a retrograde step

 

[Guy Smith]

hang on...it's right to quiz the NFU as to what they are doing, and what help they can render, isn't it?

Yep, that's cool - but as ive said before I try to come on here as an individual who has the same issues as other farmers. As for the stuff about my staying mum for fear of not getting a knighthood - I'm truly gutted that I've been found out. Now I'll end up with no friends and no knighthood and crying into my pillow at night.

Some of the above analysis on HLS payments is very good and in the main we concur. If anyone has anything in writing outside of the handbooks from any DEFRA agency about when specifically they will get paid, we would like to see it.

 

[egbert]

Yep, that's cool - but as ive said before I try to come on here as an individual who has the same issues as other farmers. As for the stuff about my staying mum for fear of not getting a knighthood - I'm truly gutted that I've been found out. Now I'll end up with no friends and no knighthood and crying into my pillow at night.

Some of the above analysis on HLS payments is very good and in the main we concur. If anyone has anything in writing outside of the handbooks from any DEFRA agency about when specifically they will get paid, we would like to see it.

Don't cry mate. We'll think up an honour for you.

As i think you know Guy, it's (CS/ hls etc) a large part of our turnover here - considerably more than the bps.
We've signed a new agreement starting 1st jan last year, and had no payment.
(nice lady told us she was still trying to process various 2017 payments, so we'd have to wait our turn)
Worse, we don't know what a crash out 'B word' will mean.
I've just started on some really heavy duty drystone wall work, which is already going to cost me a significant sum even after the capital works grant.
But seeing as i won't be claiming until after brexit (alleged) date, I can't be sure I'll ever get paid.

(I have run it past some fairly senior NE folk, and they can't be sure either...oh joy)

It's scary.
Everyone knows bps will run down, but I have almost no idea what is going to happen with the larger element of our payments, starting last year.

 

[Farma Parma]

Yep, that's cool - but as ive said before I try to come on here as an individual who has the same issues as other farmers. As for the stuff about my staying mum for fear of not getting a knighthood - I'm truly gutted that I've been found out. Now I'll end up with no friends and no knighthood and crying into my pillow at night.

Some of the above analysis on HLS payments is very good and in the main we concur. If anyone has anything in writing outside of the handbooks from any DEFRA agency about when specifically they will get paid, we would like to see it.

Good to Hear everyones friend the man who has some clout in the NFU fighting our corner Guy
My HLS payments here was squared up with the 25% balance mid dec but that should have been paid by the end of June last year.
We get no interest on late payments but if we owed them or had done something wrong we then get fined & money taken off right back to the start of our schemes.
They really are like a Secret service & ni on Untouchable....
& as for getting straight answers of if & when you might be paid these Scheme payments, well good luck with that one.
so my 75% payment for last year of course is now overdue & ive heard various rumors in should be anytime soon.....
It doesnt leave you will much confidence.....
Good luck anyways you do us all a good job & i seen the boss lady on SKY News this morning telling the rest of the UK how the job stacks up
regarding the Brexit carryon... 10/10 Thanks

 

[yellow belly]

the problem is now so great the environment is suffering because many farmers are not entering the cs
they cannot afford the outlay in advance with no likely prospect of payment

if they crop all their land they can get payment as soon as they have harvested crops imputs can be financed against grain

for those in schemes rent has to be payed and non of the costs can be financed because they have no value

why cannot the interim payment be made as intended
the uk claims half back from the eu when it is payed

the lower farm receipts reduces farmer incomes reducing the tax take to the uk

post Brexit defra can simplify the system and run a leaner process taking out all the eu added cost this will benefit the environment
I am sure the nfu or any of the large farming agents could devise a system that works for tax payers farmers and the environment at a fraction of the cost

 

[Socksitis]

Another issue that does need challenging are mapping changes and back dating of reclaims according to mapping changes. We sign into agreements on good faith with maps generated by NE/RPA. It is an Agreement, a binding legal document that is therefore covered by contractual law. Yet RPA can issue mapping changes and claw back money for several years. This cannot be right.

I had another agreement that had money clawed back because RPA had used the wrong exchange rate (variable for the different years) the different exchange rate then meant the claw back was over the minimum claw back rate and could not be ignored.

I have had changes made and financial losses, where an agreement was put together by a project officer and then 5 years down the line NE have considered options to be incompatible and lots of money clawed back, so much for NE expertise and more than one person signing off an agreement.

On other agreements it was decided that a certain option meant something different and the option was withdrawn from the agreement going forward.

As I understand it, HLS agreements offered for roll over will run the risk of reclaims going back for the whole duration of the agreement.

Is it any wonder I have no faith in working with such organisations. Trouble is, NE may well implode before any action can be taken against them.

 

[DRC]

Non of this is any good for people’s mental health. How many farmers are relying on these payments . Late or non payments and threats of fines for minor issues can easily tip some people over the edge. Our old HLS was a good scheme for us and them, but they wouldn’t continue funding Arable reversion at a sensible rate , saying it’s now permanent pasture( which it wasn’t), so all that good work was wasted as I couldn’t afford to continue in it. ( rent to pay).
Twice I was offered a new mid tier agreement , and twice I’ve turned it down , and it’s been the correct decision.
The farm looks tidy again and the worry of it all has gone.

 

[farmerm]

the problem is now so great the environment is suffering because many farmers are not entering the cs
they cannot afford the outlay in advance with no likely prospect of payment

if they crop all their land they can get payment as soon as they have harvested crops imputs can be financed against grain

for those in schemes rent has to be payed and non of the costs can be financed because they have no value

why cannot the interim payment be made as intended
the uk claims half back from the eu when it is payed

the lower farm receipts reduces farmer incomes reducing the tax take to the uk

post Brexit defra can simplify the system and run a leaner process taking out all the eu added cost this will benefit the environment
I am sure the nfu or any of the large farming agents could devise a system that works for tax payers farmers and the environment at a fraction of the cost

"post Brexit Defra can" infers a level of competence which has not been in evidence since the department was created...

 

[tinsheet]

Tried ringing NE today, just get automated answers regarding late payments! We are not taking calls on payments due to high work load! , bloody frustrating .

 

[Wooly]

Tried ringing NE today, just get automated answers regarding late payments! We are not taking calls on payments due to high work load! , bloody frustrating .

That’s like saying :
‘The cheque is in the post ‘

The reality is it’s friday and they are probably bonking in the office ! ( Google search it if you you don’t know the story)

 

[livestock 1]

That’s like saying :
‘The cheque is in the post ‘

The reality is it’s friday and they are probably bonking in the office ! ( Google search it if you you don’t know the story)

Any jobs going there?

 

[livestock 1]

Only work fridays

 

[onthehoof]

After chasing several times we got our 2017 balancing payment this week.

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

Well we have finally been paid which is a great relief as still no sign of the BPS and no communications either.
There are clear payment intervals stated in the agreements when they were set up for the new CS scheme.

It states the first payment, 75% of the value will be paid in the first year of the scheme, that to me means by December with the remaining 25% to be paid in the following year by June.
I cannot see how the new ELMS scheme has any chance of being taken up by farmers!

 

[worker]

Well we have finally been paid which is a great relief as still no sign of the BPS and no communications either.
There are clear payment intervals stated in the agreements when they were set up for the new CS scheme.

It states the first payment, 75% of the value will be paid in the first year of the scheme, that to me means by December with the remaining 25% to be paid in the following year by June.
I cannot see how the new ELMS scheme has any chance of being taken up by farmers!

Glad to hear..just out of interest, did you chase it up or was it just paid to you.