Nimco Ali's ideas...

Should staring at people, or whistling result in an immediate criminal record and fine?


  • Total voters
    18

wrenbird

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
HR2
It’s an unfortunate fact that most women will have had the experience of some lary idiot whistling or shouting some lewd comment, ( I’m speaking from memory, there are advantages to ageing from half passable to Nora Batty on a bad day), but is this the best way to deal with it, not sure.
I just have an image of some outraged young woman, screaming whatever is the modern equivalent of heretic, at some hapless jack the lad whose only crime is to say “give us a smile, darling”.
How is this going to work practically? How are on-the-spot fines going to work in the real world?
The really unpleasant and disconcerting stuff that most of us have endured at least once, the very lewd and explicit remarks, gestures, invasion of your personal space, especially if it prevents you moving immediately away to a safer distance, this is something that should be reported by victims now.
If it is reported now, what happens? How seriously are these complaints taken? Even rape is not always treated seriously by the police and courts in this country, if laws already exist to deal with a problem, enforce the current law.
 

caveman

Member
Location
East Sussex.
I find it hard to come to terms with thought of such things, as I'm sure there are many wives, mothers, daughters or others that have never said a thing to their men, knowing that they would probably go leary and possibly put theirselves in great danger by doing so.
Even visiting locals and "friends".
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Assuming the statistics quoted are anywhere near correct, 43% of our daughters have been groped/ touched against their will and 28% subjected to indecent exposure. That’s damning and tells me that something needs to be done.
Agreed. I can write truthfully that I have never groped or touched-up a woman / girl who wasn't my then 'partner', and in those cases it worked both ways, and I think that is probably true for most other men - certainly friends I have discussed this with over the years have said as much.

But I have seen it done, many times at the 'lower' end of the scale, and have been involved in the defence of some quite serious examples. And this leads me to believe that a large majority of men are not and never have been likely to cause offence or injury in such a manner; but that there is a small and persistent minority that do so regularly.

I remember a couple of examples of men (boys, really) who were absolutely decent individuals, until they started on the lager. For whatever reason, their behaviour then changed to be threatening and intrusive, both to men and women. I don't doubt that this is a common thing among such offenders.

Something does need to be done; but as is so often the case, the law is already there to do it. Threatening behaviour, of whatever nature, is already a criminal act; touching someone without leave is at the least an assault, and - obviously - anything of a sexual nature is also illegal. So what should be done? 'Victims' must report what has been done - it's as simple as that.

Criminalising whistling, or comments such as 'give us a smile' is ludicrous, who will say when it was not meant to genuinely cheer? Are we to pretend that there ar no dishonest and vindictive women? Are there to be 'dashcams' on all our foreheads to make sure nothing can be done without a record existing? And instant fines... what about proof, defence etc.?

Of course, if it was my daughter on the receiving end I'd break the little sh!t's arm as quick as thinking, but that's why we have a justice system to remove potentially furious fathers like me from the loop.
 

Ashtree

Member

Muck Spreader

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin
Has this type of harassment become more threatening nowadays or have women become more sensitive? Speaking to one of my sisters about it a while ago, she said in the 70's you were generally flattered by a bit of wolf whistling or calling and almost felt insulted if you didn't get a reaction from the likes of builders, van drivers etc. :scratchhead:
 

caveman

Member
Location
East Sussex.
Has this type of harassment become more threatening nowadays or have women become more sensitive? Speaking to one of my sisters about it a while ago, she said in the 70's you were generally flattered by a bit of wolf whistling or calling and almost felt insulted if you didn't get a reaction from the likes of builders, van drivers etc. :scratchhead:
I have a sister in law who would tell you that, working in an office environment in the 60's/70's, if she and the other girls didn't get their bums pinched or squeezed, they almost wondered what was wrong.
Can't think that carry on is so regular nowadays?
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Showed that to the better half. She says in all seriousness, “I just wish my ass these days, would spark off a few dog whistles“!
I guess that your keeper is, like Mrs Danllan, a bit over 21 - :rolleyes: - and so is probably just being modest, but see below...

Has this type of harassment become more threatening nowadays or have women become more sensitive? Speaking to one of my sisters about it a while ago, she said in the 70's you were generally flattered by a bit of wolf whistling or calling and almost felt insulted if you didn't get a reaction from the likes of builders, van drivers etc. :scratchhead:
Of course nowadays, being male, we shouldn't comment on such things, but let's pretend that we can... I think you have hit on a significant part of the 'problem'; there can be no question that certain behaviour is unacceptable, and the more extreme examples are obvious.

But what about the lower end? What if a young fellow is moving through a crowded bar and his groin brushes against a female behind? It might be an act of depravity, or it might not. Then what about if a young woman is moving through a crowded bar and she slides here rear-end across a young man's crotch? That could be construed as a sexual assault, a come-on, or just what sometimes happens in crowded bars.

And this is the crux of it, we are being asked told that women are perpetual victims and men perpetual offenders, and that simply isn't borne out by experience in the real world. Males and females, especially the young, have always acted in the ways described, and that some are now using for their own political, and highly misanthropic, ends.

There are classes in schools telling children what to think and how to react; they aren't allowed to find out things for themselves, they now have to be offended, hurt and 'injured' by things that previous generations barely noticed. Why is this?
 

arcobob

Member
Location
Norfolk
What about charging the Fe*****rs at Norwich livestock market for shouting abuse then who are harrassing people going about their business!
The problem is that these incidents are very unlikey to result in prosecution and the cost of bringing them to court is enormous. Littering is a prime example. It is illegal but hardly ever results in prosecutions.
The basic problem all comes down to respect or lack of it. It is not taught in the home nor at school and thus is never ingrained in the underlying character of the peretrator.
The point has been made about changing attitudes and sensitivities and I completely agree with this. The perpetrators , like bullies, derive pleasure from the reactions given to their actions. If there is no reaction there is no pleasure for them, but with increasing sensitivities the the frequency increases. Social media has much to answer for.
 

arcobob

Member
Location
Norfolk
Staring ? someone can stare and not be looking at anything, seems a bit silly
That may be true, but how do you provide evidence of a stare which will hold up in court? I can envisage more spite cases being brought by malicious individuals as has proved to be the case with false rape accusations.
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
People at the “top” of our democracy don’t see this as a problem. The current law isn’t enforced because it is a complex business getting a conviction, some argue that the CPS doesn’t have the resources to tackle these crimes, others that the police have “better things to do, in short politically tackling misogynistic behaviour isn’t a priority. At the moment 56 MPs are being investigated by their peers after being accused of sexual misconduct. One MP defended their behaviour claiming that some people are “easily offended”. I my opinion there is no hope of change whilst such people set such a terrible example.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
People at the “top” of our democracy don’t see this as a problem. The current law isn’t enforced because it is a complex business getting a conviction, some argue that the CPS doesn’t have the resources to tackle these crimes, others that the police have “better things to do, in short politically tackling misogynistic behaviour isn’t a priority. At the moment 56 MPs are being investigated by their peers after being accused of sexual misconduct. One MP defended their behaviour claiming that some people are “easily offended”. I my opinion there is no hope of change whilst such people set such a terrible example.
I don't think there is any argument that the CPS doesn't have the resources, it just doesn't.

As for the MPs... Parliament is, theoretically, the highest Court in the land and they jealously guard their right to both police and judge themselves - anyone claiming anger at what happened regarding drinks in No 10, must find this utterly infuriating. I object to it on solely rational grounds, this being that the law should be universal, end of story.

We share the view that a change away from this sort of thing having any sort of acceptability is essential. But, as someone who clearly cares about the subject, do you think it fair that there be a presumption at law that a woman is telling the truth?

I know of cases in which a man has been falsely accused of rape by a spurned woman, two that I was personally involved in got to trial before lies were admitted. Lives - meaning the accused's - can be ruined by this sort of thing, some are even lost when the stress of such an accusation leads to suicide.

In an earlier post I asked if we are to pretend that there are no dishonest and vindictive women, because to do so is the only way what is being called for can be realised. And the logical corollary is that it will mean the continued presumption that men are guilty.
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
I don't think there is any argument that the CPS doesn't have the resources, it just doesn't.

As for the MPs... Parliament is, theoretically, the highest Court in the land and they jealously guard their right to both police and judge themselves - anyone claiming anger at what happened regarding drinks in No 10, must find this utterly infuriating. I object to it on solely rational grounds, this being that the law should be universal, end of story.

We share the view that a change away from this sort of thing having any sort of acceptability is essential. But, as someone who clearly cares about the subject, do you think it fair that there be a presumption at law that a woman is telling the truth?

I know of cases in which a man has been falsely accused of rape by a spurned woman, two that I was personally involved in got to trial before lies were admitted. Lives - meaning the accused's - can be ruined by this sort of thing, some are even lost when the stress of such an accusation leads to suicide.

In an earlier post I asked if we are to pretend that there are no dishonest and vindictive women, because to do so is the only way what is being called for can be realised. And the logical corollary is that it will mean the continued presumption that men are guilty.
It cannot be presumed anyone is telling the truth in a criminal matter. Least of all MPs. I do understand what you are saying and personally I don’t think there is a need for new laws. However misogynistic attitudes are a problem and I can’t see how that can change without such attitudes being “called out” for want of a better phrase. False accusations are very damaging so maybe men will have to become more cautious about the situations they put themselves in? Something women have had to consider for many centuries.
 

wrenbird

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
HR2
Staring ? someone can stare and not be looking at anything, seems a bit silly
It all depends on context. You are on the late bus going home from work, you are the only passenger until, two stops from home, someone gets on. They sit between you and the exit. They don’t sit back in their seat but sit at right-angles, with their legs stretched out across the aisle.
They don’t say a word, don’t move or gesture, they just stare, and they make sure you know they are staring. Your stop is next, you have to walk past this person who is almost blocking your exit, and appears to be deliberately trying to intimidate you. How do you feel? All they are doing is staring.
 

wrenbird

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
HR2
Has this type of harassment become more threatening nowadays or have women become more sensitive? Speaking to one of my sisters about it a while ago, she said in the 70's you were generally flattered by a bit of wolf whistling or calling and almost felt insulted if you didn't get a reaction from the likes of builders, van drivers etc. :scratchhead:

I have a sister in law who would tell you that, working in an office environment in the 60's/70's, if she and the other girls didn't get their bums pinched or squeezed, they almost wondered what was wrong.
Can't think that carry on is so regular nowadays?
Again it’s all to with context and how it makes you feel, and whether a bit of banter and the odd whistle is just that or whether it is intended to insult or intimidate. You would hope that the lads on the building site or the blokes in the office would be mortified if they thought that anything they had done had caused any distress. Also, if you are all on the same level then the girls would be able to give as could as good as they got, if anyone did overstep the mark they would soon be told about it.
If you worked somewhere where the resident letch was your middle-aged boss, that was more difficult to deal with.
 

Hindsight

Member
Location
Lincolnshire
Staring ? someone can stare and not be looking at anything, seems a bit silly

I am often caught just 'staring' into the distance. It must be a female thing as my daughter has reprimanded me on more than one occasion for 'staring' at folk when in fact I was just acting 'Pretty Vacant'. But she was very tetchy about it. Odd creatures females!

 

Is Red tractor detrimental to your mental health?

  • Yes, Red tractor increase my stress and anxiety

    Votes: 312 97.2%
  • No, Red tractor gives me peace of mind that the product I produce is safe to enter the food chain

    Votes: 9 2.8%

HSENI names new farm safety champions

  • 158
  • 0
Written by William Kellett from Agriland

Farm-safety-640x360.png
The Health and Safety Executive for Northern Ireland (HSENI) alongside the Farm Safety Partnership (FSP), has named new farm safety champions and commended the outstanding work on farm safety that has been carried out in the farming community in the last 20 years.

Two of these champions are Malcom Downey, retired principal inspector for the Agri/Food team in HSENI and Harry Sinclair, current chair of the Farm Safety Partnership and former president of the Ulster Farmers’ Union (UFU).

Improving farm safety is the key aim of HSENI’s and the FSP’s work and...
Top