No RHI

[mikep]

I am building a new house and want to install an air source heat pump.
Looking at the prices for supply and fit of a certified pump it looks like the cost of installation is magically just about the same that you can get back from the RHI. Seems similar to the 'coincidental allways ten years' to get back your photo voltaic costs.
Looking further you can get good CE certified pumps that are made in the East but using main line components for less than a quarter of the cost. Also you can see that these same machines are then dressed up as another brand and being sold at inflated prices but listed for RHI grant aid. Putting two and two together it looks like another case of the 'industry' taking all the fat and leaving just enough for us to get interested in.
Now with my maths I can see that if I buy the less expensive and fit it myself and don't claim the RHI I could be better off financially.
Anyone else going down this route?

 

[Still Farming]

https://www.navitron.org.uk/store/s...MIyMrW1O3m1wIVir_tCh34CQObEAAYASAAEgIxefD_BwE

Maybe help -Forum too !

 

[mikep]

https://www.navitron.org.uk/store/s...MIyMrW1O3m1wIVir_tCh34CQObEAAYASAAEgIxefD_BwE

Maybe help -Forum too !

Thanks for info but spent a fortune on hand made roof tiles and really don't want anything butt ugly (sorry navitron) on it. That's the reason for the heat pump it will fulfill the renewable obligation without spoiling the house.

 

[akaPABLO01]

I am building a new house and want to install an air source heat pump.
Looking at the prices for supply and fit of a certified pump it looks like the cost of installation is magically just about the same that you can get back from the RHI. Seems similar to the 'coincidental allways ten years' to get back your photo voltaic costs.
Looking further you can get good CE certified pumps that are made in the East but using main line components for less than a quarter of the cost. Also you can see that these same machines are then dressed up as another brand and being sold at inflated prices but listed for RHI grant aid. Putting two and two together it looks like another case of the 'industry' taking all the fat and leaving just enough for us to get interested in.
Now with my maths I can see that if I buy the less expensive and fit it myself and don't claim the RHI I could be better off financially.
Anyone else going down this route?

The age of golden handshakes over a solar project or Biomass with the main factor focusing on profits to be made are long gone. You are right, as soon as payments on rhi for air source increased from 7ish to 10something on domestic I immediately received an email from mitsubishi stating a 5% increase on heat pump. Then I learned of the cap and it really didn’t seem as if there was any improvement for the end client. Ofgem or BEIS look as if they’ve taken the stance that payments are for the many and not the few, with the introduction of caps, which quite frankly I’m in favour of.

Reduction in tariffs were designed to drive mcs accredited equipment down in cost but the market is world wide and our buying power doesn’t influence this.

I was asked to get costing for a 200kW Biomass together and the guy eventually built his own and is happy with it.

The rhi is currently now designed to give you your roi and cover the cost of material. Eventually, you’ll benefit from the efficiency of the unit getting a kWth unit for about 4p, still benefiting thereafter.

You won’t receive rhi for a new build on new plot so you are probably right in building your own if you can. BUT, if you bugger it up such as fgas, you’ll have no one to claim for and may spend double making the original cost similar to a manufactured model.

I’m not sure how your planning department will view your decision to build your own but they’ll not let you put oil in, maybe lpg but that’ll cost about 9p /kWth making it double ashp.

If you have the opportunity I’d look at district heating gshp, you’ll be able to do all the ground work and if the other property is existing and linked in the circuit you’ll qualify for 20 years.

Still, getting a free heating system with 2 year work warranty and equipment with 5 years may out way self build. But what do I know?

 

[mikep]

The age of golden handshakes over a solar project or Biomass with the main factor focusing on profits to be made are long gone. You are right, as soon as payments on rhi for air source increased from 7ish to 10something on domestic I immediately received an email from mitsubishi stating a 5% increase on heat pump. Then I learned of the cap and it really didn’t seem as if there was any improvement for the end client. Ofgem or BEIS look as if they’ve taken the stance that payments are for the many and not the few, with the introduction of caps, which quite frankly I’m in favour of.

Reduction in tariffs were designed to drive mcs accredited equipment down in cost but the market is world wide and our buying power doesn’t influence this.

I was asked to get costing for a 200kW Biomass together and the guy eventually built his own and is happy with it.

The rhi is currently now designed to give you your roi and cover the cost of material. Eventually, you’ll benefit from the efficiency of the unit getting a kWth unit for about 4p, still benefiting thereafter.

You won’t receive rhi for a new build on new plot so you are probably right in building your own if you can. BUT, if you bugger it up such as fgas, you’ll have no one to claim for and may spend double making the original cost similar to a manufactured model.

I’m not sure how your planning department will view your decision to build your own but they’ll not let you put oil in, maybe lpg but that’ll cost about 9p /kWth making it double ashp.

If you have the opportunity I’d look at district heating gshp, you’ll be able to do all the ground work and if the other property is existing and linked in the circuit you’ll qualify for 20 years.

Still, getting a free heating system with 2 year work warranty and equipment with 5 years may out way self build. But what do I know?

The council's preferred default is oil! I'm not going to nail together my own unit just install a good non certified mono unit myself. The maths is buy and fit cost £1300, same machine fitted by MGS accredited firm £11,000. For that I get two compression fittings and a tiny bit of wiring to connect my heading controls to the pump. That's a rip off and it makes me a bit cross. Now I will get most of my money back from RHI but over eight years. The rate these firms go tits up doesn't make the warranty worth that much so it will be the self fit route and prove its performance for building control.

 

[akaPABLO01]

The council's preferred default is oil! I'm not going to nail together my own unit just install a good non certified mono unit myself. The maths is buy and fit cost £1300, same machine fitted by MGS accredited firm £11,000. For that I get two compression fittings and a tiny bit of wiring to connect my heading controls to the pump. That's a rip off and it makes me a bit cross. Now I will get most of my money back from RHI but over eight years. The rate these firms go tits up doesn't make the warranty worth that much so it will be the self fit route and prove its performance for building control.

Buy cheap buy twice is a term that comes to mind. Mitsubishi is my preferred heat pump but others are out there.

Every conversion or new build I’ve done has stipulated no oil in construction, maybe different councils have different rules?

Have you checked whether your home insurance will become void if it’s not a certified install, or will you let the people who move in worry about that?

 

[mikep]

I would agree but when you look at the 'cheap' machines they use Copeland compressors and other big name components and you don't get A and B grade stuff from them, you can get galvanised or stainless cabinets and the heat exchangers are copper, they are CE approved, TUV tested and are ISO 9001. If you live in a cold area they can supply EVI units and also reversible for summer cooling. mitsubishi are fine but do they make their own stuff or package others, didn't look as I know they really don't like selling to individuals. Can't make the sums add to see a cost of £10-12000 to install a12kw machine when you can buy a good one for around £1500 which puts a 'quality' make at around £3000. Does it really cost that much to install and commission?
No problem with the insurance it's not a heat source and the refrigerant is external. Only needs a sparks and plumbers signature to sign off install and I'm sure it will need a bit of fine tuning but c'mon is not rocket science. All the manuals are available online as is the testing and certification procedure also the units are sealed systems so no fgas problems. Council definitely prefer oil if gas is unavailable as it's an easy calc for SAPs and won't accept wood burners unless they are wood only type?

 

[f0ster]

with heat pumps the bit you need to look at is the COP (coefficient of performance) it gives the performance at different temperatures, they all work as expected when the temperature is in the teens but what sorts out the men from the boys is when the temp gets down to just above zero, and also some heat pumps actually use an electric immersion heater inside the machine to give you the extra 10 deg because they struggle to get to 60deg.

 

[mikep]

with heat pumps the bit you need to look at is the COP (coefficient of performance) it gives the performance at different temperatures, they all work as expected when the temperature is in the teens but what sorts out the men from the boys is when the temp gets down to just above zero, and also some heat pumps actually use an electric immersion heater inside the machine to give you the extra 10 deg because they struggle to get to 60deg.

Yes your right the best way to compare is to look at the COP at +7 to-7C which is where the poor units start to lose out but when you really need the work. It used to be a huge difference but now the own brand stuff is very close to the to makes. One top make had an excellent performance at that level but had an incoming air heater!!!!!!!. The EVI units work to -25 but are lower efficiency at all temps and how often and how long do we go below -10. I suppose that is the rationale behind the air pre heater to have it coming on at lower temps as theoretically you should get more bangs for your bucks heating the outside air not the inside. Really looking at it mainly for space heating so I don't need high water temps. But some you can program to alternate and with a modern house then a half hour off the heating won't make much difference.

 

[f0ster]

Some of them have an immersion heater inside them to allow them to grt to 60deg. Getting to 60 is mandatory for water regs.

 

[mikep]

Some of them have an immersion heater inside them to allow them to grt to 60deg. Getting to 60 is mandatory for water regs.

Very true, the main problem is that high temp pumps are less efficient at low temps and vice versa. You've got to decide your priority and buy accordingly. Overall I think the +30 to-10 pump is the best compromise as it will cover most heating duties and will product hot water for most of the year. You will have to top up the dhw temp as it is more efficient to use direct heat for the last few degrees than flog the pump when you are running heating as well. In the summer its easier but for safety sake direct backup is always there. The silly thing is that you must then reduce the temp to 48 before it hits the tap.

 

[akaPABLO01]

Have you done or received a full heat loss calculation to determine the size of heat pump needed?

 

[mikep]

Have you done or received a full heat loss calculation to determine the size of heat pump needed?

Yes nice modern house well insulated and air tight so not a huge demand. 12kw should be ok as there is some secondary heating from aga and wood burner and also mvhr.

 

[akaPABLO01]

Yes nice modern house well insulated and air tight so not a huge demand. 12kw should be ok as there is some secondary heating from aga and wood burner and also mvhr.

So, you’ll spend £1,300 on the unit and I’ll assume it’s a simple stock unit and you’ll need to buy in accessories?

Flexi pipe flow and return £?
Cylinder £?
Pipe work £?
Antifreeze £?
Meters £?
Filter£?
Clock/controller £?
Expansion vessel £?
Foot kit £?
Drain socket £?
Isolation switch £?
Isolation valve £?
Pumps £?
Pressure release valve £?
Bypass valve £?
Filling loop £?
Insulation £?
Plumber £?
Spark £?

What have your costs come to fitted and fired?

 

[mikep]

So, you’ll spend £1,300 on the unit and I’ll assume it’s a simple stock unit and you’ll need to buy in accessories?

Flexi pipe flow and return £?
Cylinder £?
Pipe work £?
Antifreeze £?
Meters £?
Filter£?
Clock/controller £?
Expansion vessel £?
Foot kit £?
Drain socket £?
Isolation switch £?
Isolation valve £?
Pumps £?
Pressure release valve £?
Bypass valve £?
Filling loop £?
Insulation £?
Plumber £?
Spark £?

What have your costs come to fitted and fired?

No matter what heating I put in I will
need a lot of those. The units come with a full control pack, auto defrost, pressure and temp protection, flow control. Pumps and the rest aren't that dear, don't think a filling loop will be the final straw £4.50 last one I bought. I am having and un vented water system so the tank will be dearer but that's my choice. I first looked at this two years ago and the cheaper units were just that, pretty basic but the cheaper units have really caught up spec wise now. Plummer and electrician will ticket it with the rest of the house. I am wiring and plumbing myself and getting it checked and signed off by third party all nice and legal.
I may come a cropper who knows but really all I have lost is a bit of ego and the cost of the unit. Rest of the stuff is ready to bolt on an oil boiler.

 

[akaPABLO01]

No matter what heating I put in I will
need a lot of those. The units come with a full control pack, auto defrost, pressure and temp protection, flow control. Pumps and the rest aren't that dear, don't think a filling loop will be the final straw £4.50 last one I bought. I am having and un vented water system so the tank will be dearer but that's my choice. I first looked at this two years ago and the cheaper units were just that, pretty basic but the cheaper units have really caught up spec wise now. Plummer and electrician will ticket it with the rest of the house. I am wiring and plumbing myself and getting it checked and signed off by third party all nice and legal.
I may come a cropper who knows but really all I have lost is a bit of ego and the cost of the unit. Rest of the stuff is ready to bolt on an oil boiler.

So your choices are

Option 1: spend £3,500 your way
Option 2: free system installed over 7 years

You can’t be a farmer, never met one that wasn’t savvy with spending money.

 

[mikep]

So your choices are

Option 1: spend £3,500 your way
Option 2: free system installed over 7 years

You can’t be a farmer, never met one that wasn’t savvy with spending money.

Not savvy to swim in shark infested water and at the moment the renewables market is still in the wild West stage.... Full of cowboys.
So many heat pumps have been miss sold, been installed in unsuitable buildings, badly installed or the suppliers going tits up so no warranty that the reputation of them is still poor. It's only the sub that keeps the market afloat and there is no sense in paying £12000 for a system that is of unproven efficacy just to get the sub. If it fails to deliver, and don't tell me that they always do installed by pros or not, then you have a choice of getting rid and losing the sub and £12000 or putting up with a sub optimal heating system.

 

[akaPABLO01]

Not savvy to swim in shark infested water and at the moment the renewables market is still in the wild West stage.... Full of cowboys.
So many heat pumps have been miss sold, been installed in unsuitable buildings, badly installed or the suppliers going tits up so no warranty that the reputation of them is still poor. It's only the sub that keeps the market afloat and there is no sense in paying £12000 for a system that is of unproven efficacy just to get the sub. If it fails to deliver, and don't tell me that they always do installed by pros or not, then you have a choice of getting rid and losing the sub and £12000 or putting up with a sub optimal heating system.

The industry was full of opportunists I’ll agree. Yesterday I went to a cottage which was built 300 years ago some 560mm sandstone walls. Pulled up the epc when the farmer converted it 2 years ago and sold it on. The chap who bought it was told there was no EPC, you can’t sell a property without an EPC. Within 5 minutes i was able to get an archive EPC which was given a grade C bordering on grade B with a 5kW ASHP.

https://www.epcregister.com/

The EPC was rated some 6,600kW heat requirement which would suit a 5kW so the builder/farmer installed one.

The point you’re thinking? Well, after 2 years this heat pump ceased working, the manufacturer (Italian) sent out 2 accredited engineers and could not fix it. I attended, completed a heat loss calculation and draft EPC and found the property rated F, the heat demand was 22,000kW and the heat pump needed was 14kW.

Why was this chap told there was no EPC, why was the EPC rated C and how was the calculation so wrong and lastly, why did he install 5kW ASHP? The ASHP had no RHI application.

Looks like we’re all in the Wild West, anyhow, with all the evidence I’ve given him free of charge, he is meeting with this farmer to analyse his options going forward.

Some of us out there are working for the good. You just need a bigger boat.

 

[akaPABLO01]

Forgot, how did I arrive? Well, he had 2 year warranty which expired and he contacted Mitsubishi, they sent me.

 

[steveR]

Every conversion or new build I’ve done has stipulated no oil in construction, maybe different councils have different rules?

Slight deviation from the topic, but referring to the above, assuming no RHI involvement, and that a HP of some flavour is installed, what is your local Councils view on a standby heat system??

I have a properly working NIBE GSHP setup, but my one concern is the need for electric supply to fire it up... Once running, in theory, a 4Kw generator would cope, but.... Same applies if we have a fault, and yes, they can have wobblies, usually electronic I find!

I always intended to put in a small LPG boiler to act as an emergency backup, but was discouraged by the Installer as RHI inspections could come down very hard on them. Still intend looking at an alternative...