No till after grass

[Kiwi Pete]

One thing that's getting semi-popular here is to use oats/peas as a wholecrop / break-crop and soil conditioner in one.

The big seeds are less likely to succumb to slugs, springtails and all the other insect life living in old pasture, and then the crop helps to smother out the pasture (it may have one heck of a seedbank, which any soil disturbance will kick into gear, plus when you mow off the peas the roots will add plenty of slow release N - which won't eat your OM the way a smack of nitram will.
Then you start your cropping rotation without a whole lot of rubbish and weeds, the wholecrop will take about 85-90 days from planting to harvest and likely pay for itself.

Just my 2p

 

[marc jonah]

Thanks Pete, we grow wholecrop at home as part of a rotation for the young stock and really like it

 

[Bury the Trash]

One thing that's getting semi-popular here is to use oats/peas as a wholecrop / break-crop and soil conditioner in one.

The big seeds are less likely to succumb to slugs, springtails and all the other insect life living in old pasture, and then the crop helps to smother out the pasture (it may have one heck of a seedbank, which any soil disturbance will kick into gear, plus when you mow off the peas the roots will add plenty of slow release N - which won't eat your OM the way a smack of nitram will.
Then you start your cropping rotation without a whole lot of rubbish and weeds, the wholecrop will take about 85-90 days from planting to harvest and likely pay for itself.

Just my 2p

and haul it via a 36 mile round trip with tractors and trailers..?

seems to me that this land isn't ideal for arable anyway so its a simple best decision for the land...….. reseed if needed with a long term mix then graze with stock from a farmer local to it .

 

[marc jonah]

Thanks for you help everybody, it’s appreciated.

Marc

 

[Macsky]

When old pp is sprayed off, it goes acidic as it breaks down, if you were to disc it without spraying first are you faced with the same pH problem?

 

[Bury the Trash]

Yep , because it's the dying,decaying material that does it ,not the spraying bit.

The timing of doing it will help as does drier rather than wetter conditions after sowing...or being lucky with the weather I guess.


It just an other of those reasons that they tradionally ploughed the sod under for I guess.

,

 

[Yale]

One thing that's getting semi-popular here is to use oats/peas as a wholecrop / break-crop and soil conditioner in one.

The big seeds are less likely to succumb to slugs, springtails and all the other insect life living in old pasture, and then the crop helps to smother out the pasture (it may have one heck of a seedbank, which any soil disturbance will kick into gear, plus when you mow off the peas the roots will add plenty of slow release N - which won't eat your OM the way a smack of nitram will.
Then you start your cropping rotation without a whole lot of rubbish and weeds, the wholecrop will take about 85-90 days from planting to harvest and likely pay for itself.

Just my 2p

Looking into this pea/oats mix in the UK it seems more popular to go barley/pea mix.

In my mind the oats would give a better yield of leafy matter and maybe stronger plants?

Any opinions from last years trials @hendrebc

 

[ollie989898]

Looking into this pea/oats mix in the UK it seems more popular to go barley/pea mix.

In my mind the oats would give a better yield of leafy matter and maybe stronger plants?

Any opinions from last years trials @hendrebc

I wouldnt bother. Just drill 35kg an acre of spring barley then harrow box in15-16kg of your preferred grass or clover mix.

Apply 50 units of N. Wholecrop off second week of July.

 

[hendrebc]

Looking into this pea/oats mix in the UK it seems more popular to go barley/pea mix.

In my mind the oats would give a better yield of leafy matter and maybe stronger plants?

Any opinions from last years trials @hendrebc

Well this field I tried was (still is) old tired and hasn't grown very well in a long time. Mostly because it's been set stocked with sheep for the past 40 years (probably nearer 50) since it was last reseeded. I only used some leftover barley seed just to see how it worked and was very pleased. It competed fine and grew well for the first 6 weeks or so and I thought it would come but it went dry. I'm going to try some oats this time in the same field. What I'm thinking is that it should be able to compete with grass better than barley and being taller should grow a bit quicker. Triticale might be ok too. But I might be completely wrong
Peas might work? I don't know @Kiwi Pete had an interesting thread about putting peas in a field were he just disced the top off and spun the peas on I think and it came. I think peas are a bit pricey to be experimenting with though
Honestly I think @edwhite has a better chance of making it work than I do drilling in November but if I don't try I won't know.
I've done undersown peas and barley wholecrop before. The peas smothered everything underneath it

 

[hendrebc]

Well this field I tried was (still is) old tired and hasn't grown very well in a long time. Mostly because it's been set stocked with sheep for the past 40 years (probably nearer 50) since it was last reseeded. I only used some leftover barley seed just to see how it worked and was very pleased. It competed fine and grew well for the first 6 weeks or so and I thought it would come but it went dry. I'm going to try some oats this time in the same field. What I'm thinking is that it should be able to compete with grass better than barley and being taller should grow a bit quicker. Triticale might be ok too. But I might be completely wrong
Peas might work? I don't know @Kiwi Pete had an interesting thread about putting peas in a field were he just disced the top off and spun the peas on I think and it came. I think peas are a bit pricey to be experimenting with though
Honestly I think @edwhite has a better chance of making it work than I do drilling in November but if I don't try I won't know.
I've done undersown peas and barley wholecrop before. The peas smothered everything underneath it

Just realised which thread this was on I thought it was a pasture cropping one so apologies for the tags
I direct drilled barley into sprayed off permanent pasture last year. Came really well. looked better than anyone elses barley in the area because the field hadn't been ploughed and wasn't drying as quickly. Was told it wouldn't work and leather jackets would eat it all but it came. Was quite weedy when I cut it in August but it was unsprayed for a scheme. Will do it again this year.

 

[Yale]

I wouldnt bother. Just drill 35kg an acre of spring barley then harrow box in15-16kg of your preferred grass or clover mix.

Apply 50 units of N. Wholecrop off second week of July.

What we have is a 15 acre field,old,really tired permanent pasture with a range of weeds at 1000 feet in North Wales so climate is not great.

We’ve just taken this field on.

Hoping to put 2 tonne to the acre of lime on in the next 2 months.

End of first week in May spray with possibly Kyleo after leaving it for a couple of weeks without sheep for the weeds and grass to get ahead.

Then after about 5 days so about mid month put in a forage crop for cutting.

If the oat/pea mix takes around 90 days then cutting would be mid Aug.

Go straight in with the power harrow to level years of mole hills and then put a permanent ley ASAP.

That was the rough idea.

Had thought of forage rape at a similar interval but then you’ve got the time delay of grazing it.

So the question is at climate and altitude which would be the best forage mix to cut?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Looking into this pea/oats mix in the UK it seems more popular to go barley/pea mix.

In my mind the oats would give a better yield of leafy matter and maybe stronger plants?

Any opinions from last years trials @hendrebc

Depends what's going to be in your rotation, if it's going to have barley then there is little point using barley in the first break crop? Triticale can be another good cereal as it takes that we while longer to mature compared to the pea, and also it hasn't been overbred to put arable farmers firmly on that hamster wheel, as barley and wheat cultivars

it's really just a diversity thing, the less diverse the rotation, the higher the costs over time

 

[neilo]

What we have is a 15 acre field,old,really tired permanent pasture with a range of weeds at 1000 feet in North Wales so climate is not great.

We’ve just taken this field on.

Hoping to put 2 tonne to the acre of lime on in the next 2 months.

End of first week in May spray with possibly Kyleo after leaving it for a couple of weeks without sheep for the weeds and grass to get ahead.

Then after about 5 days so about mid month put in a forage crop for cutting.

If the oat/pea mix takes around 90 days then cutting would be mid Aug.

Go straight in with the power harrow to level years of mole hills and then put a permanent ley ASAP.

That was the rough idea.

Had thought of forage rape at a similar interval but then you’ve got the time delay of grazing it.

So the question is at climate and altitude which would be the best forage mix to cut?

What about a Protoplus type mixture, which is IRG & annual clover. You’d get a huge cut of very high protein silage off it with next to no fertiliser cost, then lots of grazing later. The IRG remaining over winter will grow at a low temperature, so will give an early bite next Spring before anything else is growing. Have another big silage cut off it next year, or graze it out, spray out to have a second hit at weeds, then DD in your permanent ley.

On the molehills, chain Harrow them level after you spray it this year, if they're so Bad that the Simtech won’t drag them out (it’s pretty good for that), to keep the soil out of whatever silage you make.

Any soil compaction currently? Again, i’d Swardlift after spraying and before DDing the first crop, so it’s settled well before the permanent ley.
.

 

[Yale]

What about a Protoplus type mixture, which is IRG & annual clover. You’d get a huge cut of very high protein silage off it with next to no fertiliser cost, then lots of grazing later. The IRG remaining over winter will grow at a low temperature, so will give an early bite next Spring before anything else is growing. Have another big silage cut off it next year, or graze it out, spray out to have a second hit at weeds, then DD in your permanent ley.

On the molehills, chain Harrow them level after you spray it this year, if they're so Bad that the Simtech won’t drag them out (it’s pretty good for that), to keep the soil out of whatever silage you make.

Any soil compaction currently? Again, i’d Swardlift after spraying and before DDing the first crop, so it’s settled well before the permanent ley.
.

This winter I have cleared all the moles....lots of them!

My thoughts were to put a crop in the spring to decay the turf enough to be able to avoid ploughing,and simply power harrow it to level the bumps and then put a long term ley in.

The thought of leatherjackets is also in the back of my mind so a brassica would be perfect however it’s losing time at grazing which causes problems.

 

[neilo]

Another option is an IRG & Rape/kale hybrid mix like Olivers Raptor mix or Field Options Clampsaver (other suppliers are available), doing the same as I posted above. That mix would be a bit cheaper but would need some N applied. The brassicas in the mix would help with some of the soil beasties (not sure if leatherjackets worry brassicas, but I know wireworm don't), and the roots are great for soil structure IME.

I DD'ed some Raptor into Winter Barley stubble last summer, which obviously struggled to get going. It provided a decent bite for lambs in the Autumn, and I've just turned my yearling rams into it. I put a cwt/ac of AN on it when I was fertilising the adjacent WB in February and it's been growing steadily since. The Westerwolds/IRG there (with a little bit of brassica still) is about 8" tall and moving. That 8ca will keep 90 rams for a good while I would think, before spraying out to DD swedes/turnips.

I am considering using the mix (or similar) to cycle a weedy prg ley back to grass, in a field that doesn't suit cereals or roots over winter.

 

[Karliboy]

So I got a 3 acre field at about 1000 feet.
Some ridge and furrow various humps and hollows and a few rushes and fairly mossy.

Field got 2 ton lime per acre last summer
P and k at 1. And obviously produces bugger all.
not worried about loosing to much grazing time from it.
Got pile of fym to spread on it.
Got no drill so can only heavy Harrow broadcast seed and roll.
Don’t really want to spray off unless really necessary but can really drag it up with harrows.
Looking to strip graze with back fence. What would people advisable to throw on seed wise cheap and cheerful to improve soil structure organic matter etc.

 

[hendrebc]

So I got a 3 acre field at about 1000 feet.
Some ridge and furrow various humps and hollows and a few rushes and fairly mossy.
View attachment 776488View attachment 776490
Field got 2 ton lime per acre last summer
P and k at 1. And obviously produces bugger all.
not worried about loosing to much grazing time from it.
Got pile of fym to spread on it.
Got no drill so can only heavy Harrow broadcast seed and roll.
Don’t really want to spray off unless really necessary but can really drag it up with harrows.
Looking to strip graze with back fence. What would people advisable to throw on seed wise cheap and cheerful to improve soil structure organic matter etc.

Red clover and plantain? Maybe a few really aggressive fast growing grasses too. They should be able to compete with the moss and grass that already there without spraying off.

 

[Yale]

So I got a 3 acre field at about 1000 feet.
Some ridge and furrow various humps and hollows and a few rushes and fairly mossy.
View attachment 776488View attachment 776490
Field got 2 ton lime per acre last summer
P and k at 1. And obviously produces bugger all.
not worried about loosing to much grazing time from it.
Got pile of fym to spread on it.
Got no drill so can only heavy Harrow broadcast seed and roll.
Don’t really want to spray off unless really necessary but can really drag it up with harrows.
Looking to strip graze with back fence. What would people advisable to throw on seed wise cheap and cheerful to improve soil structure organic matter etc.

Cost wise if you can spray it off with Roundup and then Harrow it to death with a grass Harrow,broadcast some rape in (maybe in May when it warms up) it will give it a break and then put a diverse hardy permanent pasture mix in after (including @hendrebc plantain).

 

[Friesianfan]

I’m in a similar situation.ivetaken on this land. Sprayed last November and am going to plant spring barley. All indexes are good. My theory was to plough to bury all the weed seeds (not beenfarmed well, docks left to seed). Or should I just min till and drill?

 

[jonnyjon]

I’m in a similar situation.ivetaken on this land. Sprayed last November and am going to plant spring barley. All indexes are good. My theory was to plough to bury all the weed seeds (not beenfarmed well, docks left to seed). Or should I just min till and drill?

Drill only