No till grass

[Andy26]

Would think the Claydon would do the job in September, the leading tine should fine some moisture. Perhaps put half through the drill and half through the slug pelleter on the back and then roll a couple of times?

 

[Feldspar]

Would think the Claydon would do the job in September, the leading tine should fine some moisture. Perhaps put half through the drill and half through the slug pelleter on the back and then roll a couple of times?

I was thinking of a way of doing two different methods. That would certainly be one. I was worried though that the Claydon would have too crude depth control.

 

[Feldspar]

Round here most just combi drill their grass straight into baled stubbles. Then roll.

I suppose I could emulate this by power harrowing and then drilling with the 750a. Basically sounds like a very bad idea to rip it all up with the Trio and then end up with dried out lumps. I was hoping if any cultivation was needed that a tickle with the NZ might be enough.

 

[benferg]

We quite often dd permanent grass into wheat and barley stubble. The straw is baled off

drilled with either 750a or Allen Custom (5 inch spacing)

good results, we apply slug bait off the back of the drill.
Make sure the combine has a chaff spreader so that all the screened grain isn’t dropped in a tight row

 

[martian]

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that. When typically would you do that relative to spring barley sowing date (spring barley drilled in the last few days)? Only problem is I still haven't heard back from the RPA whether they've accepted my Mid Tier application...!

Now's a good time, or if you've got a good sat-nav, drill in between emerged barley rows.

I thought AB8 was flower and grass, not pure grass. So if you undersow spring barley how would you manage any broadleaved weed control, if required, without potentially damaging any wildflowers that might emerge. And I am definitely no grass and wildflower expert but would wildflowers like to be sown under a barley crop if they germinate.

Simple solution is to not spray for blw. If you've got an undersown mix of plants, then blw won't be such a issue anyway as they are occupying the ecological niche that blw would be otherwise filling. We've grown grass and clover mixes, herbal leys and sainfion undersown under spring oats and barley, the flowery types sometimes seem to disappear, but roar back after harvest when the light hits them. In a wet summer can be a bit awkward as can get a lot of greenery going through the combine...makes for lovely feed straw though.

 

[coniser]

I have sown spring barley and grass seed at the same time. Cut and baled the barley for silage before it was ripe worked well

 

[Feldspar]

We quite often dd permanent grass into wheat and barley stubble. The straw is baled off

drilled with either 750a or Allen Custom (5 inch spacing)

good results, we apply slug bait off the back of the drill.
Make sure the combine has a chaff spreader so that all the screened grain isn’t dropped in a tight row

That is a good point about the chaff spreader. Ours does have one, but often it's the lost grain in with the straw that then causes lines of volunteers.

 

[teslacoils]

I suppose I could emulate this by power harrowing and then drilling with the 750a. Basically sounds like a very bad idea to rip it all up with the Trio and then end up with dried out lumps. I was hoping if any cultivation was needed that a tickle with the NZ might be enough.

They often have no pipes on the drill, so the seeds are just broadcast Infront of the packer & harrow.

I've put grass in with a disc drill behind wheat and it was fine. However the stubble was still stood in spring, which I don't want in any mowings.

 

[Feldspar]

They often have no pipes on the drill, so the seeds are just broadcast Infront of the packer & harrow.

I've put grass in with a disc drill behind wheat and it was fine. However the stubble was still stood in spring, which I don't want in any mowings.

Don't want stubble in the mowings because it will mulch and affect the growth of the grass?

 

[Two Tone]

AB8 is Flower rich margins, the seed is expensive and you do not want to risk getting a poor establishment.
Get some sort of good tilth, apply seed on or very close to the surface and roll hard.
I combi-drilled mine into ploughed and power-harrowed land. It needs to be level, because you need to regularly top it, especially in years one and two. Or the grasses will take over at the expense of the flowers.

I am quite happy to DD AB9 Winter Bird food in May. But I wouldn’t risk doing it with AB8.

 

[teslacoils]

Don't want stubble in the mowings because it will mulch and affect the growth of the grass?

I suppose they will be baling or silaging it in this case, whereas you won't if it's stewardship?

 

[Feldspar]

I suppose they will be baling or silaging it in this case, whereas you won't if it's stewardship?

No, particularly in the spring following it will just be mowing to control annual weeds.

 

[Feldspar]

AB8 is Flower rich margins, the seed is expensive and you do not want to risk getting a poor establishment.
Get some sort of good tilth, apply seed on or very close to the surface and roll hard.
I combi-drilled mine into ploughed and power-harrowed land. It needs to be level, because you need to regularly top it, especially in years one and two. Or the grasses will take over at the expense of the flowers.

I am quite happy to DD AB9 Winter Bird food in May. But I wouldn’t risk doing it with AB8.

My worry was with heavier land trying to pull it up behind spring barley which could be harvested middle to late August and then trying to create a seedbed in only a week or two. Our 2019 Mid Tier rules say drill before middle of October which would give plenty of time, but I notice the current guidelines for 2021 Mid Tier starts say do by early September so I guess they were finding that the later sowings were struggling.

 

[Feldspar]

Now's a good time, or if you've got a good sat-nav, drill in between emerged barley rows.

Simple solution is to not spray for blw. If you've got an undersown mix of plants, then blw won't be such a issue anyway as they are occupying the ecological niche that blw would be otherwise filling. We've grown grass and clover mixes, herbal leys and sainfion undersown under spring oats and barley, the flowery types sometimes seem to disappear, but roar back after harvest when the light hits them. In a wet summer can be a bit awkward as can get a lot of greenery going through the combine...makes for lovely feed straw though.

I think given the cost of the seed the risk of getting a lot more BLW than expected would be a worry. I've found with previous AB8 that if it gets a good start it's then easy to manage for the rest of the scheme. Had a few bits which we didn't get on top of the BLW properly to start with and they were then a pain for the rest of the time. I have been researching weed wipers as a way of dealing with the thistles and ragwort which are the biggest pain.

 

[Mark C]

I drilled some AB 8 margins in the autumn with my moore drill, came fine

 

[Two Tone]

My worry was with heavier land trying to pull it up behind spring barley which could be harvested middle to late August and then trying to create a seedbed in only a week or two. Our 2019 Mid Tier rules say drill before middle of October which would give plenty of time, but I notice the current guidelines for 2021 Mid Tier starts say do by early September so I guess they were finding that the later sowings were struggling.

With mine, most of which was on difficult, heavy headlands that didn’t grow decent enough arable crops, I found that we needed to be in with the power-harrow as soon as the plough had started to haze off. To start breaking the soil down to create a level seedbed and most importantly, to save moisture.

In year 1 on some of mine, I actually drilled in May, having left those headlands undrilled from the arable crops in the middle of the fields. Those headlands were in effect winter ploughed. On the whole, I’d say these ended up with more flowers and less grass to worry about becoming over-dominant. But by year 3, they were all pretty even. I can’t believe how well they have worked and the amazing different types of flowers there are with those margin headlands.

My 5 years ends this year and we will either go for a 1 year extension or start another 5 year agreement. Those Margins will not need replacing/replanting again.

All I need to do is move my GS4’s (Herb and legume rich pastures) to prevent them from becoming PP1 permanent pastures, instead of TA1 temporary grass. That is it!

 

[Two Tone]

I drilled some AB 8 margins in the autumn with my moore drill, came fine

How well do you think the Moore would have coped establishing AB9, Nectar plots and margins?
I would reckon that if the conditions were right, probably quite well. However this is even more expensive seed and worth even more £/ha income, so we need to be pretty certain the establishment system will work.

 

[brentnz]

We quite often dd permanent grass into wheat and barley stubble. The straw is baled off

drilled with either 750a or Allen Custom (5 inch spacing)

good results, we apply slug bait off the back of the drill.
Make sure the combine has a chaff spreader so that all the screened grain isn’t dropped in a tight row

Could you tell me how you find the 750A vs the Allen Custom? CD model? I know the obvious things like row spacing and hopper configuration. Interested how the triple disc performs compared to single disc. Slot closure, depth control, penetration etc. Many thanks!

 

[benferg]

Could you tell me how you find the 750A vs the Allen Custom? CD model? I know the obvious things like row spacing and hopper configuration. Interested how the triple disc performs compared to single disc. Slot closure, depth control, penetration etc. Many thanks!

We run an earlier model ED drill, I’d like a CD though.
John Deere always wins on slot closure and normally depth control. Penetration is better on the JD. The up side and down side of the Allen drill is having a seperate opener. If you are drilling into clay soils it can open a slot that’s deeper than the desired drilling depth if you aren’t on the ball. Net result is the seed gets dropped deeper than what the seeding disc is trying to place it. Slot closure with the Allen drill is fine if the soil has a bit of crumble. In wet/ marginal conditions the Allen sucks especially on the flat. where as the jd can keep going and the resulting seed strike is still good.
My plan is to replace the JD drill with a horsch or similar so we have seed and fert. That way a single disc drill would do the bulk of spring brassica work and the Allen drill would do more of the direct drill grass work in the autumn where narrow row spacing is more important.
I think the jd drill is a good machine but high maintenance.
we are on our second jd drill. We know how to maintain it using some needham parts so that helps.

 

[yellow belly]

I have use a weaving gd and Moore to establish grass in the autumn 2012 was a challenge the last drilling was mid October came fine

the issue with the wild flower seeds is many will need to be shallow or on the surface planted where as the grass would need to be best 10 to 20 mm deep

we did nector plots the first year too deep with the gd now sprinkle them on the top

the notill disc drills can easly drill too deep it is also important to set the depth for the middle of the field not just the harder headlands
what ever system you use conservation of moisture is essential in case the september early October is very dry