Non CE sheds

[P.O.T]

What are the issues associated with buying a non ce marked shed? People must put up 2nd hand sheds all time. Thinking of buying shed then getting guys into erect. Are they any worse than ce marked?

 

[multi power]

JFDI

 

[Forever Fendt]

What are the issues associated with buying a non ce marked shed? People must put up 2nd hand sheds all time. Thinking of buying shed then getting guys into erect. Are they any worse than ce marked?

For piece of mind you could get a design certificate for the frame for less than a hundred quid and all the other components should be ce marked (purlins,bolts, cladding) if the frame maker is unwilling to provide a design certificate don't bother with them and get some one else,There are a lot of frames for auction and on eBay that won't be capable of getting a ticket,Given your location the non ce could cause issues with the building warrant

 

[Agri Design]

For piece of mind you could get a design certificate for the frame for less than a hundred quid and all the other components should be ce marked (purlins,bolts, cladding) if the frame maker is unwilling to provide a design certificate don't bother with them and get some one else,There are a lot of frames for auction and on eBay that won't be capable of getting a ticket,Given your location the non ce could cause issues with the building warrant

@Forever Fendt been asked about this a few times this year.
From the following guidance
http://www.ridba.org.uk/CEmarking/CE-Marking-for-Fabricated-Steelwork.pdf
"Any products manufactured after 1 July 2014 for sale using the BS EN 1090-1 standard are legally required to have CE Marking. However, CE Marking does not apply retrospectively. So, any products manufactured using the BS EN 1090 standard before the 1 July 2014 can still be legally used and sold after the 1 July 2014. Furthermore, any components or fabricated structures that do not have CE Marking which have been recovered or recycled from sites can be reused on future sites or sold providing they meet the standards laid down in BS EN 1090 providing they are not altered in any way."

So its OK to erect 2nd hand steel frames that aren't CE marked. However if over 280m² a building warrant will be required if in Scotland. I have had a few jobs in the last 6 months with 2nd hand sheds.

@P.O.T The issue tends to be the wind - snow loads on the new site, some of the sheds were standard designs for very sheltered sites. So the engineer looks at it and says it does not comply as it was originally built. There are simple changes that can be made to get it passed though. Again if in scotland getting an SER certificate will normally be the best way to go for building warrant. The engineers cost will be more than £100 though. They will be checking the steel, designing foundations and looking at ground conditions as a minimum. I can help with all this or if you just would like to chat through the regulations & options let me know.

Other thought is you need to be getting a steel frame very cheap and exactly as you want to make it a cheaper option as your erection and fit out cost are the same. Sometimes more.

David
Agri Design

 

[Forever Fendt]

@Forever Fendt been asked about this a few times this year.
From the following guidance
http://www.ridba.org.uk/CEmarking/CE-Marking-for-Fabricated-Steelwork.pdf
"Any products manufactured after 1 July 2014 for sale using the BS EN 1090-1 standard are legally required to have CE Marking. However, CE Marking does not apply retrospectively. So, any products manufactured using the BS EN 1090 standard before the 1 July 2014 can still be legally used and sold after the 1 July 2014. Furthermore, any components or fabricated structures that do not have CE Marking which have been recovered or recycled from sites can be reused on future sites or sold providing they meet the standards laid down in BS EN 1090 providing they are not altered in any way."

So its OK to erect 2nd hand steel frames that aren't CE marked. However if over 280m² a building warrant will be required if in Scotland. I have had a few jobs in the last 6 months with 2nd hand sheds.

@P.O.T The issue tends to be the wind - snow loads on the new site, some of the sheds were standard designs for very sheltered sites. So the engineer looks at it and says it does not comply as it was originally built. There are simple changes that can be made to get it passed though. Again if in scotland getting an SER certificate will normally be the best way to go for building warrant. The engineers cost will be more than £100 though. They will be checking the steel, designing foundations and looking at ground conditions as a minimum. I can help with all this or if you just would like to chat through the regulations & options let me know.

Other thought is you need to be getting a steel frame very cheap and exactly as you want to make it a cheaper option as your erection and fit out cost are the same. Sometimes more.

David
Agri Design

Good information but i would replace the word sometimes with always if its a second hand shed

 

[MD @Minshall Buildings]

Whatever your view about the politics of CE, what it does ensure is the design and loadings are confirmed for the location in which the building is going to put up.All materials used to construct are sourced from quality and traceable suppliers, the welding is done by trained coded welders and all this can be evidenced!

Like everything in life there is always a cheap alternative and if that's what you are after then the supply is out there.... and maybe ok?

"Quality remains long after price is forgotten" !

 

[Dry Rot]

This is a picture of the heavy rusting on the base of one of the stanchions on a secordhand building erected in Scotland within the last couple of years.

I was told this was fine as the building was originally CE inspected when constructed. It does have building warrant as an "agricultural building", as it is over 280m2. Any comments?

 

[MD @Minshall Buildings]

odd looking column what's it made of?

Who issued this "building warrant" and what is it specifically that is warranted?

 

[tomlad]

It that a round or a girder

 

[Dry Rot]

odd looking column what's it made of?

Who issued this "building warrant" and what is it specifically that is warranted?

It's steel frame construction, but secondhand. I was curious about the rusting stanchions. When I asked, the council infomed me that a warrant had been issued, presumably as an agricultural building. Here is a picture before it was cladded. It's a long story and I don't want to go into the details at the moment!

 

[stablegirl]

We are on with putting up a new livestock building at the moment.

I had 14 CE marked quotes and none of them matched, the steel sizes were all different!

 

[S J H]

We are on with putting up a new livestock building at the moment.

I had 14 CE marked quotes and none of them matched, the steel sizes were all different!

And I expect that some of them are still under specced, but because they're ce marked people go by this rather than using looking into it further.

I had a quote for a grainstore last year from a large firm, ce marked, but the steels were the same size as a livestock building.

 

[designanddetail]

You will always get different sized steels from different places for the same shed, all designed to the relevant BS codes. Some fabricators like heavier sections, with less actual fabrication to do, so less stiffeners etc, some like the steel as light as possible, but then need heavier more involved connection design, more bolts thicker end plates, rafter stays etc, and some engineers are lazy, the computer says size x,y,z so they put it down. Whereas a couple of small tweaks and you can get the sizes altered. I would also say 90% of all industrial warehouses that are consultant designed and go out for tender as that, are never built with those steel sizes. The fabricators re-design and run the sizes a lot closer to capacity, quite often the fabricators will take the design to within 5% of its capacity, whereas the consulting engineers will keep it with a 25% margin.

Also, most quotes seem to say, steel sizes assumed, but may alter upon completion of calculations.

Finally, quite a few fabricators never actually run any calcs, unless you ask for a copy, which you should always do. Quite easy to put an old calcs document in the ce folder which is not relevant to the job, the auditors do not read the calcs to see if they are correct or the correct steel is used.

 

[TheTallGuy]

As the recent Greenfell tragedy highlighted, all these regulations are open to interpretation and flexing of the rules. There is very little actual cross checking and thorough auditing of the paperwork and systems and even less auditing of the auditors... who don't report back to a body with any clout or legal authority anyway!