Norwegian Red Vs. Swedish Red for crossbreeding.

Whitepeak

Member
Livestock Farmer
When I worked on the AFBI research farm in NI they had a couple of pure Norwegians that had been imported, but their temperament was terrible- not flighty but aggressive, we always said a jerX would knock the unit off because they fidget so much but the Norwegians aimed for you!
They had also started a 3 way cross, Hol then Jer then Swedish. Didn't have much experience with the Swedish as they were only just bulling the first heifers. Think they were serving to Peterslund and another i can't remember the name of. Anyone over in NI who know how that breeding programme is going, it was 10yrs since I was there?
Dairy farm I currently milk at has a few Braut daughters out of Holsteins, they are the slowest milkers and although they peak as high as the pure Holsteins I think they drop off very quick once in calf.
 

watcher72

Member
Had 14 days on tour a few years ago. Didn`t see anything I`d like to have at home.in Norway Better cattle in Sweden & even better in Denmark.
Nothing beats going to see for yourself

I agree.
Went to Sweden 18 years ago and the Swedish Red were on a par with their Holsteins for production and health traits.

Marketing is what pushes these novelty breeds, by this I mean ia why don't we see any Swedish Holsteins marketed in the UK.

I would select Swedish bulls on the fantastic health traits they have been selecting for for years.
 

Davy

Member
Location
North NI
I agree.
Went to Sweden 18 years ago and the Swedish Red were on a par with their Holsteins for production and health traits.

Marketing is what pushes these novelty breeds, by this I mean ia why don't we see any Swedish Holsteins marketed in the UK.

I would select Swedish bulls on the fantastic health traits they have been selecting for for years.
Some of viking genetics holstein bulls will be swedish.
 

jerseycowsman

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
cornwall
Just use jersey, proven to raise constituents for your manufacturing contract, proven lower lameness and easier calving job done. Stop messing about with these foreign breeds that seem to do nothing according to all the posts I've just read here
 
Thanks for all the replies.

We switched away from Holsteins as we were breeding a large high performance cow we could neither accommodate or feed, added to which we couldn’t get them in calf ( feeding ?) and were getting too many with very short close teats

Cross breeding definitely provided the quick fix we needed.

We didn’t try Frisians as we wanted the hybrid vigor of an outside breed. Swedish reds provided this and have been selected for longer than most breeds for health traits.

The cows we have ended up with are not as smart as the original Holsteins , they would not win any prizes. We are however getting less lameness, less mastitis , less everything, yes that probably includes peak yield, but they last longer and calve regularly, our fertility is unrecognizable compared to a few years ago.

So far, it seems to me, the Swedish Reds winning in this thread compared to Norwegian Reds
 

The Agrarian

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Northern Ireland
Agree that udders are worth a watching on the swedes. The leg is a bit on the short side for anyway leeway in the udder.

Norwegian has a proportion of Holstein in there, so is usually not the first recommended for crossing. I also heard they were bad wee bitches. Could just be rumour.

Danish reds I do like. Little bit more leg, tidier udders and a nice amount of condition. Good honest cows.

Brown Swiss - like a lot. You can believe lameness is environmental until you own a bunch of these, and you'll see they are great on their feet. I'd fault them for not enough strength or condition when crossed on Holstein.

Montbeliarde - generally good udders. Breed for best udders and they'll be fine. Strong and tough, with good feet and fertility. Flat lactations.

Fleck - as above, but carrying a bit more beef and a little smaller, and less impressive udders. But good cows all the same.

I wouldn't put fleck on your swedes because of short leg long udder sydrome risk. Go Swiss first to tidy them up, then Monty or fleck.
 

watcher72

Member
Brown Swiss - like a lot. You can believe lameness is environmental until you own a bunch of these, and you'll see they are great on their feet. I'd fault them for not enough strength or condition when crossed on Holstein.

I saw Brown Swiss in North America and they were more extreme than the Holsteins.

We were looking for a cross and those lines were crossed off straight away
 

The Agrarian

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Northern Ireland
If it's a cross on Holstein, then I'd agree. But I wouldn't touch American stuff unless it's out of the ordinary. German lines would be better. In my mind it's probably a good Holstein replacement in a crossing scenario.
 

Sparkymark

Member
I heard brown swiss calves are difficult to feed, never used them so not sure how true this is. Some of the swedish and danish reds have small percentages of brown swiss blood in them.
In the Alpine region the brown swiss population is shrinking as farmers move more to the fleckvieh which says a lot about which is more profitable.
 

watcher72

Member
If it's a cross on Holstein, then I'd agree. But I wouldn't touch American stuff unless it's out of the ordinary. German lines would be better. In my mind it's probably a good Holstein replacement in a crossing scenario.
The brown Swiss I saw were out of the ordinary.
Ideal for muddy extended grazing as their udder were 3 FT off the ground..on stilts!
 

Llmmm

Member
Just use jersey, proven to raise constituents for your manufacturing contract, proven lower lameness and easier calving job done. Stop messing about with these foreign breeds that seem to do nothing according to all the posts I've just read here
Jersey is a great breed especially with lameness and going in calf the main problem i have experienced witg them is not holding condition something which crossbreds have no problem with as a pick of pure breeds its hard to pass jersey
 

som farmer

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
somerset
Jersey is a great breed especially with lameness and going in calf the main problem i have experienced witg them is not holding condition something which crossbreds have no problem with as a pick of pure breeds its hard to pass jersey

jerseys are a good breed, good foragers etc, but you lose out on cull and calf values, we are milking a fair few xs and have bred some cows to Canadian jerseys, good size, good figures, bull was +15 for stature, gaby's arrow,we are milking 1st and 2nd calvers, but we are edgeing towards hf x Friesian, one to keep size right, and f+p, then hf to keep topping up the volume ! but the hf will soon adapt to what the market wants, and, to be fair there are some good hols out there
 

Liam Healy

New Member
Thanks for all the replies.

We switched away from Holsteins as we were breeding a large high performance cow we could neither accommodate or feed, added to which we couldn’t get them in calf ( feeding ?) and were getting too many with very short close teats

Cross breeding definitely provided the quick fix we needed.

We didn’t try Frisians as we wanted the hybrid vigor of an outside breed. Swedish reds provided this and have been selected for longer than most breeds for health traits.

The cows we have ended up with are not as smart as the original Holsteins , they would not win any prizes. We are however getting less lameness, less mastitis , less everything, yes that probably includes peak yield, but they last longer and calve regularly, our fertility is unrecognizable compared to a few years ago.

So far, it seems to me, the Swedish Reds winning in this thread compared to Norwegian Reds
Thanks for all the replies.

We switched away from Holsteins as we were breeding a large high performance cow we could neither accommodate or feed, added to which we couldn’t get them in calf ( feeding ?) and were getting too many with very short close teats

Cross breeding definitely provided the quick fix we needed.

We didn’t try Frisians as we wanted the hybrid vigor of an outside breed. Swedish reds provided this and have been selected for longer than most breeds for health traits.

The cows we have ended up with are not as smart as the original Holsteins , they would not win any prizes. We are however getting less lameness, less mastitis , less everything, yes that probably includes peak yield, but they last longer and calve regularly, our fertility is unrecognizable compared to a few years ago.

So far, it seems to me, the Swedish Reds winning in this thread compared to Norwegian Reds

Hi Water Wheel,

Great to hear that crossbreeding has had some really positive results for you, would be really interesting to look into the data to back up your seen improvements.

I look after the HYVIG crossbreeding part of the business for Genus and have been working specifically in the crossbreeding sector for over 8 years now, working very closely with the NR breed.

I have responded via conversation to some of the points outlined by other members, and had hoped to discuss these with you. Unfortunately your settings do not allow this, but I would gladly take some time to go over these with you.

Many Thanks
Liam
 
Location
Cornwall
Hi Water Wheel,

Great to hear that crossbreeding has had some really positive results for you, would be really interesting to look into the data to back up your seen improvements.

I look after the HYVIG crossbreeding part of the business for Genus and have been working specifically in the crossbreeding sector for over 8 years now, working very closely with the NR breed.

I have responded via conversation to some of the points outlined by other members, and had hoped to discuss these with you. Unfortunately your settings do not allow this, but I would gladly take some time to go over these with you.

Many Thanks
Liam

What do you sell most of Norwegian red?
 

Stig taylor

New Member
Over the last 14 years have tried several crosses. Brown swiss great solids and volume but terrible feet also fertility not great. Swedish red not best solids but a reasonable all rounder. Montys are mad as calves but good all rounder will use again. Fresian great all round. The latest trial guernseys great udders feet and solids without the extreme size reduction the jersey brings . Our first crop of Norwegian reds due this feb so be a while till an opinion on them but so far Fresian x guernsey is favorite combination so far
 
Hi Water Wheel,

Great to hear that crossbreeding has had some really positive results for you, would be really interesting to look into the data to back up your seen improvements.

I look after the HYVIG crossbreeding part of the business for Genus and have been working specifically in the crossbreeding sector for over 8 years now, working very closely with the NR breed.

I have responded via conversation to some of the points outlined by other members, and had hoped to discuss these with you. Unfortunately your settings do not allow this, but I would gladly take some time to go over these with you.

Many Thanks
Liam
Genus spent years telling me how far ahead Swedish reds were,for health traits, compared to any body else. And I believed them. I think they first marketed them in 1983.
For some reason the story changed a few of years ago??
I'm happy where I am.
Do no recording so no data to back up my gut feelings, but the gains are most noticeable on health issues.
 

Liam Healy

New Member
What do you sell most of Norwegian red?

Hi HolsteinFriesian90,

NR would be the foremost breed in our HYVIG approach, this is not to say other breeds are not good, it just means the NR fits the desired goals more often. I feel it is largely down to the desire to improve health and management ease within current herd set ups, and is also the strive for a smaller more efficient cow.
 

Liam Healy

New Member
Most of the Scandinavian reds have proofs on an Ayrshire base so you might be right. Plus the Finnish reds actually call themselves Aryshires.
I'm sure someone like @Durry cows will be better able to elaborate than me though

arent these NR just cross breed ayrshire cows. youd get the same traits from crossing with a pure ayrshire

Hi Both,

The NR was originally made up of 5 native breeds and with Ayrshire influence at times. Since that point the breed set about affirming this and building the breed from within it's own NR population. Swedish Red was introduced, but the decision was made a couple of years ago to no longer include Viking Reds within the program, as the change in breeding goals that the Viking Red now follows, did not fit closely with that of the NR.

Bulls need to be registered with a society, and the Ayshire matches the NR most closely, but does not mean that the same traits can be found. If the NR is removed from the available bulls on the Ayrshire and Red list on AHDB, then the average for the remaining bulls drops significantly, so the NR has a positive effect on the average. I am not saying the Ayrshire is not a good breed, you just need to choose the best bulls available for the traits you desire.
 

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