Not sure how to vote.

[stevedave]

I'm at the moment undecided which way to vote. Most of the arguments on both sides are either scare stories, factualy inaccurate or just not important but one question I want someone from the remain side to answer is how is the rampant bureaucracy and democratic deficit are a good thing? There must be someone on here who can answer this question.

 

[milkloss]

Im an outie, although you feel the EU means bureaucracy it is our government and civil service that implement the Brussels directives which is my main concern. It is believed by some that Brussels actually hold back our own gang from getting too bureaucratic.

Can't say much about the democratic deficit because that's part of the reason I want out.

 

[Kidds]

It is believed by some that Brussels actually hold back our own gang from getting too bureaucratic.

I expect it is true.
We all seem to say we want less bureaucracy yet employ thousands of folk to gold plate it all. We have become a nation of jobsworths.

 

[stevedave]

Im an outie, although you feel the EU means bureaucracy it is our government and civil service that implement the Brussels directives which is my main concern. It is believed by some that Brussels actually hold back our own gang from getting too bureaucratic.

Can't say much about the democratic deficit because that's part of the reason I want out.

But it is still EU directives we may well gold plate them but we didn't invent them.

 

[spin cycle]

i was thinking today that if ppl don't know how to vote it's probably better to abstain

 

[Old McDonald]

I'm at the moment undecided which way to vote. Most of the arguments on both sides are either scare stories, factualy inaccurate or just not important but one question I want someone from the remain side to answer is how is the rampant bureaucracy and democratic deficit are a good thing? There must be someone on here who can answer this question.

Both sides are telling lies. That is the way of politicians, virtual strangers to the truth. Have you ever heard a politician say Yes or No when asked to do so? Of course not, it is in the nature of the beast to waffle or qualify and answer.

Not sure that you will agree with me, and I know that there are millions of others who will not, but having been a farmer of sorts since my father gave me a few square yards of his two acre smallholding to call my own about 65 years ago, and also having achieved more than a modicum of seniority in public service in the meantime, I will say that it is essential to have a sound, professional and honest public service to serve the public.

That last point is extremely important - to serve the public. I am proud to have several letters, personal and to the press, and other documents where the public have praised me for being a servant of the public. The public are the employee of public servants - they pay the salaries, they are the employer, not the local council, not the county council, not HM government, not the EU, but you and your fellow taxpayers.

I found during my years behind a desk that local government employees tended to be more the type of employee you would want, and the further along the upward spiral of government you went the less these people were the sort you would want. Recent experience of being on the other side of the fence suggests it is still the same. The local person working in the council office probably knows you or your family and tries their best, the centralised public servant does not, and the EU bureaucrat in Brussels or Strasbourg does not give a damn. On that basis you have to vote LEAVE.

I am not sure what you mean by democratic deficit. There have been a few claims on her (mainly by leavers I regret) that certain EU appointments are not done democratically. The Westminster style of cabinet government means that the voters do not appoint the Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, etc.,but in all my life I have heard gey few arguments against the PM appointing them. The same applies to the EU. The commissioners, one from each member, are not voted in by their own people, but recommended for appointment by the governments of their country. No different to Westminster, except there is the additional step, of the EU being involved, and the President (presently Juncker) makes the appointment within the EU cabinet. It is no less democratic than Britain, but there is that one more level of government and one more level of public servants (23,000 supporting the commisssioners according to the EU website) far removed from you the voter and taxpayer to separate you even further from the person you voted for in whatever election it was you voted. That makes you more or less meaningless to those public servants.

Every level of government that is reduced in size is of direct personal benefit to those who vote, so, vote LEAVE.

 

[wanton dwarf]

... No different to Westminster ...

I think there is a huge difference.

In the UK if a national government fails badly then the government can be forced out of office by the will of the people and MPs. The current EU referendum may well cause a snap election either way.

The people of the UK can lobby, demonstrate, strike, work to rule and get results.

There is no direct influence on any EU appointment and as far as I know once elected they cannot be unelected.

I don't know how long a commissionaire can be in power for, but in the UK I think the maximum is 5 years for an MP at which point they must face the people.

A poor choice of Chancellor or Foreign Secretary etc will have a big impact on popularity and have a direct effect on the viability of that government. The people of the UK can also ensure that local councillors are from one party and MPs from another.

The people have no say on EU appointments and no way of making their displeasure felt - just look at how Farage is viewed in the EU, if the EU were accountable they would have made changes many years ago.

 

[Ashtree]

You are not sure how to vote. Think of the Brexit gang who are certain how to vote. OUT!!
Ask them why? They figure "sure it's bound to better than what we have now"!!
I must look up the meaning of certain and sure in the Oxford dictionary!!!

 

[Derrick Hughes]

It’s not the first time MEPs have asked the Commission to look at making country of origin information mandatory. But the Commission has so far rejected the request.

 

[The Ruminant]

There is no direct influence on any EU appointment and as far as I know once elected they cannot be unelected.

????? When you say "EU appointment" what are you referring to?

If you mean an EU bureaucrat's job then you're correct, just as our civil servants are appointed and, assuming no misdemeanours, are safe in their job.

If you mean MEP's then they are elected and voted out much like the UK's MP's.

If you mean the Council of Ministers, then they are unelected in the same way our House of Lords is made up of unelected peers, although the council of Ministers is comprised of representatives from each of the 28 member states - and these representatives are put in place by our own democratically elected government.

Hence my uncertainty about you saying "once elected they cannot be unelected"

 

[Old McDonald]

I don't know how long a commissionaire can be in power for, but in the UK I think the maximum is 5 years for an MP at which point they must face the people.

Why do you not know? If you are going to post about something, surely it is just sensible to be awarer of the thing about which you are posting, instead of saying in the middle of the post "I do not know". The information is easily avalable via an internet search.

The has been a great deal of misinformation put out by posters on this thread about the various parts of the EU, and really there is no excuse for that. Everyone who posts here can use a computer, and must have done some searches. The Eu website gives all the info necessary in very simple and straightforward language. I know basically how it works and some of the positions within the EU framework, but I do check before making grand statements.

The Ruminant in the post above is correct about the staff being the same as UK civil servants, unfortunately he is wrong about the European Council aka the Council of Ministers. The members are the Heads of state or government of EU members, European Commission President, and the High Representative for Foreign Affairs & Security Policy.

The Westminster style of cabinet government means that the voters do not appoint the Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, etc.,but in all my life I have heard gey few arguments against the PM appointing them. The same applies to the EU. The commissioners, one from each member, are not voted in by their own people, but recommended for appointment by the governments of their country. No different to Westminster, except there is the additional step, of the EU being involved, and the President (presently Juncker) makes the appointment within the EU cabinet. It is no less democratic than Britain, but there is that one more level of government and one more level of public servants

That is what I posted. The "No different to Westminster" remark is in respect of the way the Commissioners are appointed, not the means of electing UK MPs. The Commission is operated on the lines of Cabinet government, just the same as Westminster, and in fact most democratic countries.