NSA launches survey to investigate claims of poor ram longevity

[andybk]

The National Sheep Association (NSA) is urging farmers to take part in a study to investigate claims as to why rams are not lasting long enough in commercial systems.

Following growing concerns from its members the NSA said it was using funding from the Animal Welfare Foundation to investigate the longevity of breeding males and the reasons for deaths and culling in the UK.

NSA chief executive Phil Stocker says he hopes the study will enable the association to provide members with practical solutions.


“It is important for NSA to listen and respond to what our members are telling us, but with this particular situation the lack of information means we are unable to pinpoint practical on-farm solutions for them.

“That is why we thought it was so important to bring together a group of experts and get to the bottom of it – but we cannot do that without the help of farmers to find out exactly what is happening on farm.”

Independent sheep consultant Lesley Stubbings, who is involved in the study, says there is no data available on how long rams should last in commercial flocks.

“Estimates of cost range from £1 a lamb sired to more than £7 but we want to find out what is going on on-farm with the long-term aim of increasing the number of lambs each ram sires in its lifetime and, therefore, reducing the cost.”

To help farmers are being asked to complete a quick ram longevity survey, on-farm management and the main problems encountered.

I look forward to the results in due course .

 

[S J H]

Just done it, but I suspect it all comes down to feed, same with Bulls, too many breeders think that anything with a set of rubbish is a breeder

 

[Purli R]

@SJH wins the prize for.......Hitting the nail on the head,nuff said

 

[S J H]

@SJH wins the prize for.......Hitting the nail on the head,nuff said

Thanks, I could have saved them the money

There was a chap on Facebook selling lim Bulls, he'd just sold his 60th bull that year, but only had 120 cows

He might of had a very high percentage of bull calves, but I'm not sure.

 

[gatepost]

Over feeding will no doubt play its part, but I can't get away from the fact that some of my customers regularly get through more rams than others, some seem to be able to keep them alive for years.

 

[Purli R]

Thanks, I could have saved them the money

There was a chap on Facebook selling lim Bulls, he'd just sold his 60th bull that year, but only had 120 cows

He might of had a very high percentage of bull calves, but I'm not sure.

More like talking what came out the back end of his bulls

 

[S J H]

More like talking what came out the back end of his bulls

Most probably and I expect 12-15kgs of grub a day helped them along a bit

 

[Enry]

Thanks, I could have saved them the money

There was a chap on Facebook selling lim Bulls, he'd just sold his 60th bull that year, but only had 120 cows

He might of had a very high percentage of bull calves, but I'm not sure.

May well be flushing top cows and therefore producing a lot higher % of saleable bulls? The ones that don't make the grade are a dead loss

 

[MJT]

Over feeding will no doubt play its part, but I can't get away from the fact that some of my customers regularly get through more rams than others, some seem to be able to keep them alive for years.

Agreed always get those people who put them in the shittest thistle filled paddock on the farm and forget about them . Been guilty of similar sometimes in the past. Wouldn't treat your ewes like it or a stockbull, so why Rams .

 

[neilo]

Thanks, I could have saved them the money

There was a chap on Facebook selling lim Bulls, he'd just sold his 60th bull that year, but only had 120 cows

He might of had a very high percentage of bull calves, but I'm not sure.

Did he sell them for breeding, or in the fat ring?

 

[S J H]

May well be flushing top cows and therefore producing a lot higher % of saleable bulls? The ones that don't make the grade are a dead loss

I'm not sure it would all be on basco to see the breeding, they bought a lot of reasonable in calf heifers a few years ago, but the couldn't have all produced breeding Bulls IMO

 

[S J H]

Did he sell them for breeding, or in the fat ring?

Very true, nothing like a bit of spin

 

[petec]

The National Sheep Association (NSA) is urging farmers to take part in a study to investigate claims as to why rams are not lasting long enough in commercial systems.

Following growing concerns from its members the NSA said it was using funding from the Animal Welfare Foundation to investigate the longevity of breeding males and the reasons for deaths and culling in the UK.

NSA chief executive Phil Stocker says he hopes the study will enable the association to provide members with practical solutions.


“It is important for NSA to listen and respond to what our members are telling us, but with this particular situation the lack of information means we are unable to pinpoint practical on-farm solutions for them.

“That is why we thought it was so important to bring together a group of experts and get to the bottom of it – but we cannot do that without the help of farmers to find out exactly what is happening on farm.”

Independent sheep consultant Lesley Stubbings, who is involved in the study, says there is no data available on how long rams should last in commercial flocks.

“Estimates of cost range from £1 a lamb sired to more than £7 but we want to find out what is going on on-farm with the long-term aim of increasing the number of lambs each ram sires in its lifetime and, therefore, reducing the cost.”

To help farmers are being asked to complete a quick ram longevity survey, on-farm management and the main problems encountered.

I look forward to the results in due course .

What do you expect when all of the ram sales are full of (lifetime)overfed animals (they have to be to be noticed). Someone once said who worked in a slaughterhouse , You would not believe the size of the rumen of a barley beef bull compared to an old Suffolk ewe. Perhaps the NSA could include in their studies how the rams rumen developes when fed a normal grass based diet,as compared to a lifetime of concentrates.

 

[Bury the Trash]

If the answer is as simple as forage fed then the simple solution is to buy from a source that they not pumped with conc or cabbages. Its more than just feeding i suspect ie start them properly yourself with clostridial vacine if you cant trust the soucre to have done it , it dosnt cost much -
Dont over work them when they if they are lambs.
Dont forget Pasteurella

 

[texelburger]

Slightly off topic but i was wondering the other day if a Rams fertility decreases as it gets older ,ie 5 years plus for example.I asked our vet who didn't know but assumed ,like old men,that it would.
We have one ,in our commercial flock,that i think is 7 ish and it just got me thinking if it was time to cull.This Ram is still in good condition and rampant with the ewes.Thoughts ?

 

[neilo]

If the answer is as simple as forage fed then the simple solution is to buy from a source that they not pumped with conc or cabbages. Its more than just feeding i suspect ie start them properly yourself with clostridial vacine if you cant trust the soucre to have done it , it dosnt cost much -
Dont over work them when they if they are lambs.
Dont forget Pasteurella

I vaccinate everything incoming as if it hadn't been jabbed. However, rearing management (especially feeding) is absolutely key to longevity. I bought a ram lamb a couple of years ago whose genetics have come through fine, but I struggled to keep him alive himself and culled him as a 3 yr old (weighing 70kg!). He wasn't used as a shearling himself, because of his own performance.
I friend bought another from the same pen (for a lot more money) who went exactly the same way. He died as a 3 yr old and a DIY PM showed him to have a tiny liver.
Genetics of both Rams have bred through OK, just ruined by early feeding management and neither of us will look in that breeder's pen now.

On ram lambs, I use mine heavily, usually at 1:60+, then throw them back out with the running lambs for the winter. Properly reared ram lambs should be able to cope well enough with their job, without wrapping in cotton wool, and should recover well enough after without pampering. It's only mismanagement in early life that makes that a necessity IMO, regardless of breed.

 

[Happy]

Texel throat anyone?
Seems to have been the main downfall of most of our Rams that haven't lasted the course in recent years.
Maybe we are just crap at buying them but the No1 breed nationally so if repeated elsewhere must have some bearing on the figures.

 

[andybk]

I vaccinate everything incoming as if it hadn't been jabbed. However, rearing management (especially feeding) is absolutely key to longevity. I bought a ram lamb a couple of years ago whose genetics have come through fine, but I struggled to keep him alive himself and culled him as a 3 yr old (weighing 70kg!). He wasn't used as a shearling himself, because of his own performance.
I friend bought another from the same pen (for a lot more money) who went exactly the same way. He died as a 3 yr old and a DIY PM showed him to have a tiny liver.
Genetics of both Rams have bred through OK, just ruined by early feeding management and neither of us will look in that breeder's pen now.

On ram lambs, I use mine heavily, usually at 1:60+, then throw them back out with the running lambs for the winter. Properly reared ram lambs should be able to cope well enough with their job, without wrapping in cotton wool, and should recover well enough after without pampering. It's only mismanagement in early life that makes that a necessity IMO, regardless of breed.

problem is bet the breeder is still turning them out , and in a commercial situation they wont last as long as you kept them alive , all the hard work and reputation put in to breeding good rams by the rest of us of all breeds is pee'd up the wall , because of the selling / showing circus from the few , really hope nsa comes to firm conclusion over the results of the survey , and hope they look at builth as part of it .

 

[hindmaist]

If you keep your tups living and get five or six crops of lambs off them you will be missing out on genetic gain.And the ones that live for six years are the ones with most genetic gain to offer.

 

[neilo]

Slightly off topic but i was wondering the other day if a Rams fertility decreases as it gets older ,ie 5 years plus for example.I asked our vet who didn't know but assumed ,like old men,that it would.
We have one ,in our commercial flock,that i think is 7 ish and it just got me thinking if it was time to cull.This Ram is still in good condition and rampant with the ewes.Thoughts ?

I used an 8 yr old Highlander ram last year. Bought as a shearling, he had been single sire mated at 1:90 or 1:100 every year with hardly a miss. It was clearly his last year, so I put him and his 6yr old son out together with 89 ewes. For some reason both had gone wrong, although no sign of infection or physical damage. They'd didn't get a single ewe in lamb, which all conceived to the next cycle after a swap around of Rams (their replacement got pulled in after 17 days with 50 ewe lambs, then put in with those 89). The Jaffas made £114 a piece as culls soon after and another lesson was learnt.
Both were fit and mobile still, but trying to stretch 'that last year' out of them was a false economy IMO.