NSA launches survey to investigate claims of poor ram longevity

[glensman]

I bought a ram lamb at Builth I (early August) this year. He stood out in my field of ram lambs when he came out of quarantine, and he still does now. Everyone that has viewed the sheep in that field, has picked him out and got excited about him. The reason is that he was fed well up until sale, so had a head start on growth AND he was trimmed for sale. That trimming is still evident now.

Don't get me wrong, he looks a cracking ram and is showing the traits for which I bought him, but when I handle the lambs in a pen, he lacks muscling compared to a lot of the others running with him. You wouldn't know it from a photo though.

My acid test is to see what he looks like in the Spring, after running without hard feed, and when he's shorn bare with the rest. That will tell me how well his genetics can cope without high levels of feeding. I have had shocks in the past, where £2k ram lambs have been the poorest in the field the next year, but responded to hard feed again (before swelling). I noted similar genetics used heavily & successfully in a couple of other flocks at the time, which went on my mental 'avoid' list.

I broadly agree with you on this topic, I think however there is a grey area where the correct rams with conformation, skin and natural fleshing ability can make the adjustment to a forage only system. The problem is feeding and especially trimming make the selection of these tups more difficult. Just as a matter of interest have you ever bought a tup lamb on the open market that adjusted and thrived on your system.

 

[Ysgythan]

That's Charolais though. It was almost a year old and trimmed. It hadn't seen grass until weaning, if then. There's a reason their called "shed sheep".

 

[andybk]

That's Charolais though. It was almost a year old and trimmed. It hadn't seen grass until weaning, if then. There's a reason their called "shed sheep".

not in all cases ,we havnt kept a char in longer than a 4/6 weeks for 20 years , then its only the poor doers destined for cull and fat or the cades . Its definitely an issue with many of the top breeders though and not just charollais i have seen plenty of texels crash , and as for uk suffolks prob the worst of the lot .
As neil has already said the acid test is next april at shearing , after winter outside , that usually sorts them out , The commercial man needs to understand anyone can grow a ram lamb onto 80-100kg , if you think your buying superior genetics because they are bigger / look better/fatter than the rest , your deluded , high protein feed from cake or catch crops encourages wool growth making them look bigger as well , have bought quite a few ram lambs that were the same weight or less @12-18 months after they were, when bought .

 

[neilo]

That's Charolais though. It was almost a year old and trimmed. It hadn't seen grass until weaning, if then. There's a reason their called "shed sheep".

He was 8 months old and I know the breeder and his system. He had been fed well enough, but also rotationally grazed on high sugar ryegrass leys. His sire was one I sold to him a couple of years ago, hence some confidence in his breeding. He's lost a bit of flesh while he adjusts, but too early to tell if he will thrive without concs or not. Obviously I think there's a chance he will, or I wouldn't have been waving to the very friendly man on the rostrum.

As for 'shed sheep', any that are born in December would have to be, unless the farm runs a goodlifer's stocking rate. Several of the largest (& recorded) flocks also have a March lambing block now, which don't see a shed past lambing. I see plenty of other terminal breeds in sheds with fans on before sale, or in a field with every bit as much concentrate feeding as indoor lambs get from hoppers. It's not a breed problem, but a breeder problem, IMHO.

 

[neilo]

I broadly agree with you on this topic, I think however there is a grey area where the correct rams with conformation, skin and natural fleshing ability can make the adjustment to a forage only system. The problem is feeding and especially trimming make the selection of these tups more difficult. Just as a matter of interest have you ever bought a tup lamb on the open market that adjusted and thrived on your system.

Yes, of course I have bought a few that have adjusted and thrived, but very much a gamble at a ram auction IME. I don't buy many in though, preferring to use my own bloodlines as much as possible.
I bought a ram lamb for good money in 2012, from what claims to be a low input flock, that crashed drastically, as did his pen mates. Before he crashed, he sired a few lambs, which did do very well. I didn't use him as a shearling, whilst I watched a few of his progeny through. I used him the following year, then retained the best son, then culled him before he died on me (as a lot of his pen mates had). When I culled him as a 3 yr old he weighed 68kg, which was the same as his scan weight as a lamb. His genetics were fine, just completely screwed by early rearing management IMO.

I also have a couple of my early (indoor) lambs that fall apart when they're weaned off hard feed. I cull them out obviously, but if those same sheep had been fed on, they wouldn't of crashed and could have been forward for sale, only to crash on the purchasers farm.

 

[gatepost]

To be fair, I used to keep ped charolais, now run one on gimmers, and the last two, both bought as lambs at Builth, both turned away on esa banks, tupped 50-60 and have ended up as quite impressive adult sheep especially the one I have now, certainly a different breed, bigger but not as muscular in general IMO. I wish the ped Texel lambs I have bought in recent yrs would hold their flesh as well in the same situation.

 

[Ysgythan]

I take it you both would accept that you are the exceptions, not the rule. Not sure you'd accept that you're highlighting the worst examples of other breeds not the general situation, but I believe you are.

There's a reason why Charolais haven't really taken off in Scotland, they're lowland early lambing specialists. They do that job well, but it doesn't really do them any favours to pretend they are something they are not. There is also no reason for modern sheep to be trimmed and in failing to tackle that the breed is condoning the worse excesses of management as trimming hides a multitude of sins. Tackle trimming and the rest will follow.

 

[glensman]

I take it you both would accept that you are the exceptions, not the rule. Not sure you'd accept that you're highlighting the worst examples of other breeds not the general situation, but I believe you are.

There's a reason why Charolais haven't really taken off in Scotland, they're lowland early lambing specialists. They do that job well, but it doesn't really do them any favours to pretend they are something they are not. There is also no reason for modern sheep to be trimmed and in failing to tackle that the breed is condoning the worse excesses of management as trimming hides a multitude of sins. Tackle trimming and the rest will follow.

"There is also no reason for modern sheep to be trimmed and in failing to tackle that the breed is condoning the worse excesses of management as trimming hides a multitude of sins. Tackle trimming and the rest will follow"QUOTE

That is correct

 

[andybk]

I take it you both would accept that you are the exceptions, not the rule. Not sure you'd accept that you're highlighting the worst examples of other breeds not the general situation, but I believe you are.

There's a reason why Charolais haven't really taken off in Scotland, they're lowland early lambing specialists. They do that job well, but it doesn't really do them any favours to pretend they are something they are not. There is also no reason for modern sheep to be trimmed and in failing to tackle that the breed is condoning the worse excesses of management as trimming hides a multitude of sins. Tackle trimming and the rest will follow.

yes agree with all that . no need in a modern breeding environment for trimming a waste of time at best and trade descriptions at worst ,there is plenty of trade for the right sheep south of the border, if you want something different start your own composite breed . still think shearing month before premier sale should be the norm , the difference in charoles was very marked and a lot easier to pick a good un ,

 

[neilo]

yes agree with all that . no need in a modern breeding environment for trimming a waste of time at best and trade descriptions at worst ,there is plenty of trade for the right sheep south of the border, if you want something different start your own composite breed . still think shearing month before premier sale should be the norm , the difference in charoles was very marked and a lot easier to pick a good un ,

I'd prefer just untrimmed, as at least you can judge the fleece then. Impossible to police a rule where shearing has to take place at a certain time, so no point in having the rule IMO.

 

[neilo]

I take it you both would accept that you are the exceptions, not the rule. Not sure you'd accept that you're highlighting the worst examples of other breeds not the general situation, but I believe you are.

There's a reason why Charolais haven't really taken off in Scotland, they're lowland early lambing specialists. They do that job well, but it doesn't really do them any favours to pretend they are something they are not. There is also no reason for modern sheep to be trimmed and in failing to tackle that the breed is condoning the worse excesses of management as trimming hides a multitude of sins. Tackle trimming and the rest will follow.

I absolutely agree on the trimming arguement. Judging Charollais in Southern Ireland, where there is no trimming allowed, it was noticeable how there were no/very few poor fleeced sheep there. Over here, some see excessive wool as a good thing, as it gives you something to work with.

Plenty of Charollais Rams seeing use in March/April lambing flocks around the UK. In fact, I don't think any of my customers use them only on early lambing flocks.

The arguement on feeding re:ram longevity has nothing to do with the Charollais breed, the same is true of all breeds. I used Charollais as an example as they are what I buy from auctions on occasion. My maternal Rams have all been bought privately, and all from flocks that rear on forage only.

 

[Keepers]

There is also no reason for modern sheep to be trimmed and in failing to tackle that the breed is condoning the worse excesses of management as trimming hides a multitude of sins. Tackle trimming and the rest will follow.

See I always thought the texel breed was not trimmed, but the large amount of rams I have seen whom have been "tactfully sheared" is unreal

I have a pedigree texel shearling ram here at the moment, when I bought him he was unfortunately died orange and so still looks like a pansy now in a field full of earth/white coloured rams, but he had also been tactfully shorn.
It did not bother me and I have not been tricked or conned in away way as I have known the breeder for years and I bought him at a sale but knowing who he was and where he came from (as it was closer for me to pick him up from the sale than driving to the farm)

But now when someone comes to look at my tups, there he stands in the field, with his large round gigots and flat long back looking grand as anything with his gert white head and perfect tear drops, He looks top notch and far superior over the other grubby rams

But every time I bring him in and sink my hands into him I am always disappointed, the wool on his legs has been left longer than the rest and he handles no where near as hard or fleshed up or in as good a condition as any of my homebred rams, although they are a different breed granted, but both from grass fed flocks

So we have a "non trimmed" ram looking the part in a field of actual non trimmed shorn bare rams and he cannot even get close on them when you handle them and compare, that and I do worry why he is the only ram I have ever had that is not continually sh*gging the rest of the rams like the others do year round

I do worry for his first winter with me......

 

[baabaa]

all this talk of trimmed,partially trimmed,untrimmed has got me thinking of something else completely,not good for the aul blood pressure.

anyways a little light reading from doctor v

http://beefandlamb.ahdb.org.uk/wp/w...for-purpose-rams-A-blueprint-for-breeders.pdf

 

[dogandstick]

Ban all trimming and colouring in all breeds and shows I say.

 

[neilo]

Ban all trimming and colouring in all breeds and shows I say.

A good idea, but how do you police it?

I've always thought the craftsmanship needed in preparing a market topping Texel ram for sale, could far outweigh that required to trim some of the other breeds.

 

[dogandstick]

A good idea, but how do you police it?

I've always thought the craftsmanship needed in preparing a market topping Texel ram for sale, could far outweigh that required to trim some of the other breeds.

How do the Irish Charollais police it?

 

[M-J-G]

This place holds the record for the lowest temperature in New Zealand.

View attachment 426088

From the colour chart I'd guess that Spain is more tropical than NZ, and that South Island NZ is pretty similar to the UK, but that's up to everyone's own opinions. The 4th image is not colour coded with the first 3.
I worked with a guy who was from the southern end of NZ and he said we had softer winters in Edinburgh than he had at home.
I have noticed that a lot of UK Texel and Suffolk guys are not keen on the idea that anything associated with NZ is comparable to the UK. I can't think why.

 

[neilo]

How do the Irish Charollais police it?

The year before I judged over there, they'd chucked a whole pen out that had been trimmed. They were the pen of a big spender & a big feeder, and they apparently sold better than most of the auction sheep, in the car park.

As with everything, the ultimate signals have to come from the buyers' wallets.

 

[dogandstick]

The year before I judged over there, they'd chucked a whole pen out that had been trimmed. They were the pen of a big spender & a big feeder, and they apparently sold better than most of the auction sheep, in the car park.

As with everything, the ultimate signals have to come from the buyers' wallets.

Without passing judgement on sheep that I've never seen, unless they were actually better sheep than the others in the sale, it make wonder if any of the buyers know how to select breeding animals.

 

[Ysgythan]

I know it goes on @neilo we bought one tup who had apparently rubbed on a telegraph post in the field. Only under his stomach mind...

If you look at a MacGregor photography album of a big Texel sale, they get so low to take the photo the camera angle displays an awful lot and it's relatively plain to see the ones that have been belly clipped. Kelso is treated as fair game anyway as its not a society sale.

It comes down to philosophy to me. If you manage to hide a blemish it will come out, if not noticed in the tup himself it will show in the stock. So you're making work for yourself and you're likely to pee off your customers. Doesn't seem sensible as a stainable business model.