Organic farming

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
No no, not saying farmers aren’t intelligent at all- I am one. Just highlighting that farming is not as clear cut as it once was. God, on courses to give antibiotics nowadays- not just jabbing as we once would.

Do you really think the bit of paper, given for attending such a course, makes a jot of difference to anything. It is a box ticking exercise, pure and simple, and I know of nobody that has said they have gained anything at all from that course.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
There is a happy medium which would work far better, having farmed conventionally on super high input systems and organic too a mix between the 2 would be the ideal world if carbon was counted etc.
One dose of roundup and min till would be far better than plough, roll, power Harrow etc, by the time you count the diesel used to do those jobs a single dose of roundup would be a lot more worthwhile. Maybe I should call it “BoB-Ag” 🤷🏻‍♂️ (Best of Both)

^this. Following the rules laid down in an Organic book doesn't make anything more sustainable. Most of the treatments I would give to my sheep in a normal year are also given by nearby organic sheep farmers, they just get a written derogation by a vet to say they can. We don't give treatments for the fun of it, only because of the same need that any vet would happily sign off on.
It may also come as a surprise to some, but organic farmers don't have exclusive rights to growing clovers either, however much some of them might try to suggest it. I read of the manager at Dalesford Organics claiming the clover in their swards was the reason why their orgasmic lamb tasted better. Pillock.
 

Al R

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
West Wales
^this. Following the rules laid down in an Organic book doesn't make anything more sustainable. Most of the treatments I would give to my sheep in a normal year are also given by nearby organic sheep farmers, they just get a written derogation by a vet to say they can. We don't give treatments for the fun of it, only because of the same need that any vet would happily sign off on.
It may also come as a surprise to some, but organic farmers don't have exclusive rights to growing clovers either, however much some of them might try to suggest it. I read of the manager at Dalesford Organics claiming the clover in their swards was the reason why their orgasmic lamb tasted better. Pillock.
Quickest way of getting rid of clover is artificial N like most know. No bagged N used allows Clovers to thrive better. We’re stocked at very similar to what we were pre organic with no fertiliser costs and a lot less dirty backsides partly due to no rich N swards but dropping the black headed breed has probably changed that a lot too.
A quick flash of sugar in late Feb to wake all the leys up and match the peak grazing demand would be very welcomed but not available…
 

Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
Quickest way of getting rid of clover is artificial N like most know. No bagged N used allows Clovers to thrive better. We’re stocked at very similar to what we were pre organic with no fertiliser costs and a lot less dirty backsides partly due to no rich N swards but dropping the black headed breed has probably changed that a lot too.
A quick flash of sugar in late Feb to wake all the leys up and match the peak grazing demand would be very welcomed but not available…
But the residual N through the autumn from the clover when artifical isn't spread makes up for it.
Mixed forages, clovers etc gives improved intakes and higher Omega3 in milk which are good for us.

How do you know when you buy conventional milk if your getting the clover based milk or the housed maize and soya fed milk?
 
Location
southwest
More misinformation from the Organic Evangelists-"Quickest way of getting rid of clover is artificial N like most know"

Artificial N only adversely affects clover content of a sward if the N responsive grasses are allowed to shade out or smother the clover. Lots of leys receive a couple hundred units of N and still show a good stand of clover.

The organic lobby make it sound like Nitrogen kills clover, whereas it's actually played a major part in increasing crop production and feeding the World.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Quickest way of getting rid of clover is artificial N like most know. No bagged N used allows Clovers to thrive better. We’re stocked at very similar to what we were pre organic with no fertiliser costs and a lot less dirty backsides partly due to no rich N swards but dropping the black headed breed has probably changed that a lot too.
A quick flash of sugar in late Feb to wake all the leys up and match the peak grazing demand would be very welcomed but not available…

As a 'conventional' farmer, Nitrogen fertiliser used on grassland here is just a management tool to extend the growing season at both ends, or too make up for unexpected shortfalls in an emergency. The organic farmers I know would get a derogation in such emergency situations, to either buy in 'conventional' fodder, or to move stock to non-organic farms on tack, if they notify anyone about it at all of course.

I do also apply other fertilisers/products to replace P&K offtake, many of which are also used by those organic farmers that do actually replace offtake, instead of just removing continually.

All farming will remove nutrients, as our produce will always be carrying it away. Spreading FYM produced on the farm isn't replacing offtake, just moving nutrients around the unit.
 

Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
We haven't had one of these threads for a while now..... (y) :ROFLMAO:
An infighting one.


I do love the posters who say AB are fantastic, but have been over sold by vets for the last 30 years and have now seen the light and realised they have wasted millions of pounds on something they didn't actually need and was suppressing the cows own immune system to the point where it needed AB .
 

Sid

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
South Molton
More misinformation from the Organic Evangelists-"Quickest way of getting rid of clover is artificial N like most know"

Artificial N only adversely affects clover content of a sward if the N responsive grasses are allowed to shade out or smother the clover. Lots of leys receive a couple hundred units of N and still show a good stand of clover.

The organic lobby make it sound like Nitrogen kills clover, whereas it's actually played a major part in increasing crop production and feeding the World.
And look how the world is now, in a real great shape isn't it.

And people are so grateful to you they pay so much over and above what you need to make a living in agriculture whilst the multinationals supplying the inputs are so hard done by and don't pay a single dividend because they give you the inputs so cheaply.

And then you woke up....
 

Al R

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
West Wales
As a 'conventional' farmer, Nitrogen fertiliser used on grassland here is just a management tool to extend the growing season at both ends, or too make up for unexpected shortfalls in an emergency. The organic farmers I know would get a derogation in such emergency situations, to either buy in 'conventional' fodder, or to move stock to non-organic farms on tack, if they notify anyone about it at all of course.

I do also apply other fertilisers/products to replace P&K offtake, many of which are also used by those organic farmers that do actually replace offtake, instead of just removing continually.

All farming will remove nutrients, as our produce will always be carrying it away. Spreading FYM produced on the farm isn't replacing offtake, just moving nutrients around the unit.
As I said above, Best of Both would be by far the best, a bit of sugar to wake things up to extend grazing seasons and the odd herbicide where desperately needed would help reduce carbon (diesel) useage for example etc… I farm Organically and Low input Conventional which is run as a Best of Both situation but with conventional prices etc….
 

Exfarmer

Member
Location
Bury St Edmunds
I disagree totally, the metric we need to evaluate agriculture is how many calories of energy are needed to produce a calorie of food, by this metric organic is far better. Conventional agriculture is destroying the soil, where as regenerative (organic or not) is building soil
I would agree with this idea of calories in calories out, and sone farming is extremely marginal, but when I was growing potatoes using Henry Doubleday figures our non organic potatoes were nearly ten times more efficient in such terms.
 

delilah

Member
Environmentally, it really doesn't matter how you choose to farm. Just do what's best for your circumstances, your land and your skill set. What does matter, environmentally, is what happens to your output once it leaves your farm gate.
 

Highland Mule

Member
Livestock Farmer
I disagree totally, the metric we need to evaluate agriculture is how many calories of energy are needed to produce a calorie of food, by this metric organic is far better.
Really? Am interest in anything you have on this, because I would have guessed the exact opposite. Do you include the additional diesel/ propane/ worker effor in manual weed control, plus reduced yields per acre for vegetable production, or are you only referring to meat grown?
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
Environmentally, it really doesn't matter how you choose to farm. Just do what's best for your circumstances, your land and your skill set. What does matter, environmentally, is what happens to your output once it leaves your farm gate.

Really? Are you suggesting it doesn’t matter that many of my neighbours are now growing maize for ever larger dairy units, mauled out in October, before hauling muck back to the same fields all winter? Or the guys with 500+ cows and a couple of chicken sheds on 140ac? Or the chicken farmers dumping so much shite on their land that it kills all the clover out and drops the cereals on the floor by May? Or the slurry plastered on waterlogged riverside fields all winter?

There are plenty of issues on ‘our’ side of (some of) the farm gates, although only part of the problem of course. They all need addressing.
 

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