Organic-ish no-till

[Dan Powell]

So Groundswell was very good and thought-provoking and I have come away with the sense that the ultimate farming system that many there are aiming for is some kind of organic no-till, maybe with ruminant animals grazing perennials and cover crops etc etc.

A few problems:
1. Grass weeds.
2. If you use a herbicide to deal with (1), you are now not organic.
3. If you are not organic, you are selling commodity foods such as wheat, rape etc.
4. You are now competing with Mr. "Robust" Chemistry Farmer who is throwing the kitchen sink at the job and getting 12t/ha year in year out. Your cost of production is higher because realistically you're only going to get 6t/ha
5. You're stuffed or wealthy enough not to care.

So in response to this, is there any way of creating an organic-ish label. For the sake of argument let's call it "Earthcare Farming".

Key principles are:
1. No fungicides.
2. No insecticides
3. Minimal tillage (let's say 5cm)
4. No in-crop herbicides - pre planting burn down is acceptable.
5. Cover crops or fertility building leys must be employed within the rotation
6. All crop residues must be returned (as muck is OK where appropriate)
7. Crop nutrition may be applied as appropriate but no artificial nitrogen.
8. A certain percentage of land must be farmed for wildlife - this can be in an environment scheme as well so no extra land if you are in a stewardship scheme.

Could a concept like this ever get off the ground or am I wasting my breath?

 

[damaged]

No artificial nitrogen but not organic. I can't see the financial return.
The concept is good but like most good ideas in uk farming, it's unlikely to pay on an average unit.

 

[Dan Powell]

No artificial nitrogen but not organic. I can't see the financial return.
The concept is good but like most good ideas in uk farming, it's unlikely to pay on an average unit.

Quite. There would need to be a premium price like there is in organic farming.

 

[SilliamWhale]

No.

 

[The_Swede]

Or in other words 'if only organic standards allowed us a single annual application of glyphosate' have lost count of how many times I've had this said to me!

 

[Dan Powell]

No.

So why bother going to listen to speakers like Dr. Christine Jones etc, because I can't see how that vision of conservation agriculture will ever get any traction in the UK.

The fact is that short term economics will rule the day and the annual applications of fungicides, herbicides and high rates of nitrogen will have to continue.

@martian , Groundswell was fantastic, but is it really the start of something in the UK if conservation agriculture is basically seen as a low fixed cost approach to conventional combinable cropping arable farms? If we are serious about pushing its environmental credentials, then we have to have something to show for it, and I'm not sure we do yet.

 

[The_Swede]

The problem is that to obtain a premium for conservation Ag produce you either need definitive proof of environmental and or health benefits to gain traction with the public or you need a more theoretical angle and a big soap box (a la the soil association).

Re the first point given the diversity of systems employed on farm and often conflicting academic research you could never offer definitive proof. The second option requires powerful marketing and you could suggest questionable tactics - by talking up conservation Ag any scheme would of course be backed into negative comments towards conventional tillage farms etc, this is of course where the SA finds itself.

I've mentioned LEAF on here before but years ago there was a small premium on OSR produced with reduced inputs and also some milling oat contracts... maybe an extension of this sort of thing is the best we can hope for but I'm not convinced the national market is there. A direct farm marketed niche is what is needed to extract a premium IMHO, such as cold pressed rapeseed oil.

The alternative option is that we obediently follow Dr Jones and co and as they suggest in time arrive at a place whereby we have reduced inputs without sacrificing yield of our chosen commodity and all are better off without the shackles of a particular 'scheme'.

Just my own ramblings but I think a fair assessment of where CA UK finds itself?

 

[Dan Powell]

The alternative option is that we obediently follow Dr Jones and co and as they suggest in time arrive at a place whereby we have reduced inputs without sacrificing yield of our chosen commodity and all are better off without the shackles of a particular 'scheme'.

Yes that's a fair assessment, but I'm not sure many will follow this path without some degree of certainty that it will pay off and at present I don't see much certainty in it at all.

 

[The_Swede]

I personally think we need to tread very carefully on this reduced input path.

In terms of plant protection products; insecticides I can see the potential for greatly reduced use (but also await with interest field scale IPM trial results as promised). Modern fungicides at typical rates I have seen little hard evidence of causing any lasting harm to soil or other life. If endorsing any general anti-pesticide stance it is of course herbicides where we are extremely exposed in no-till situations...

The not inconsiderable irony of listening to Dr Jones bemoaning 'carcinogenic' pesticides whilst eating a beef burger (delightful may I add) with the waft of an open fire in the air (also lovely) was not lost on me and I would hope others of an open and scientific mind.

 

[SilliamWhale]

So why bother going to listen to speakers like Dr. Christine Jones etc, because I can't see how that vision of conservation agriculture will ever get any traction in the UK.

The fact is that short term economics will rule the day and the annual applications of fungicides, herbicides and high rates of nitrogen will have to continue.

@martian , Groundswell was fantastic, but is it really the start of something in the UK if conservation agriculture is basically seen as a low fixed cost approach to conventional combinable cropping arable farms? If we are serious about pushing its environmental credentials, then we have to have something to show for it, and I'm not sure we do yet.

Well, my opinion....

I think you have to contextualise things a bit. Firstly my own personal opinion of Dr Christine Jones is I'm not so fussed on her views. I wasn't at Groundswell to hear her speak but I've read her stuff and whilst some of it is interesting I'm not really into the whole link between low nutrient density food and soil health etc. I don't find it convincing on an evidential level or on a statistical level. I think you can have bad diets but I don't really think there is much bad "food" as it were. This is just my personal opinion and may well be against the tide a bit amongst Groundswell attendee's but I'm only saying this because I don't believe there is a reliable link. I prefer a bit of scepticism in the absence of much evidence.

I'm a no till nut right down to the gusset of my mankini as you well know, but I really think that encouraging and defining qualitative agricultural practices are not as simple as pesticides = bad or even less pesticides = less bad. Its not that linear. I can reduce my pesticide usage by 40% if I just spring cropped. I could probably reduce it another 20% if I got a bit more ballsy and didn't pre-em beans, dropped a fungicide in my spring crops etc. but I'm not sure what it would get me? Actually it may make me more money some years, maybe not.

Fungicides will probably continue for the forseeable but I think we will become smarter with fungicidal products in the future. Currently I don't think fungicides are that toxic to all intents and purposes at the moment and are pretty well tested but I think they will continue to develop lower mammalian toxicity fungicides in due course and then maybe our attitudes will soften towards pesticides again.

For me low fixed costs are one of the most important things (although I do seem to have a habit of lowering fixed costs and then spending the cash saved on another luxury fixed cost some times) but also quality no till doesn't have to become a "movement" or a marketing strand that's in fashion today and not tomorrow it can just be a practice or an evolutionary process whereby we're each year trying to chip away at the inputs that cost money to produce a little bit more output for less. Be that through better soil fertility, biology, timeliness, herbicide strategy, rotation, tractor tyre choice, drone sprayer choice, guidance system choice, seed breeding progress etc.

 

[SilliamWhale]

And finally on Environmental Credentials its a tricky one to satisfy. Farming is inherently environmentally unfriendly in so many ways but also the expectations of what is environmentally friendly and acceptable is always going to be about 10 steps ahead of us farmers who are actually doing the practical stuff. Not least because it takes time to develop habitats etc. We may have cleaned the watercourse' up much more than 30 years ago in general - in a combined effort with sewage farms and what have you but that is now the base line for expecations (no arguments from me about this) whereas maybe 30 years ago it was seen as an unavoidable by product of another process?

I expect before my days we will look at self propelled sprayers and think did we really drive up and down in those whilst Trevor the Drone is doing it for us now.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I won't be as vocal on this thread, promise!
Will be interested to see what you come up with, as this sort of progress is completely "where I'm at".
I believe that it is possible, but to make it work financially, you almost certainly have to have that organic box ticked.
It also depends on a lot of criteria such as fertility, history, and scale to a degree.
As a small scale drystock farmer in a damn good part of the world, I hope it's feasible.
My plan is to stick largely to scratch till in the meantime and use heavy stocking to give any new crops the jump, but productive perennial grass on a livestock farm isn't the worst weed problem to have!
Hopefully timing and vigourous seed at heavy rates will work

 

[mikep]

This whole idea is only a one farm solution not a country wide one.
Firstly Just to look at the number of animals involved tells you it's not on in a world where meat eating is declining. Also it would lead to depopulation of the traditional stock raising areas.
Secondly the demand for organic is low and will stay low. Forget all the bulls**t about a large increase in organic area what happens when supply exceeds demand by 0.01% the price will be at commodities level. Like livestock farmers the last thing any sensible organic farmer wants is an increase in numbers.
Thirdly no government will take any action to raise the price of food, if domestic prices rise imports will be sucked in.
Best way is to use a combination of methods to reduce costs and footprint and hope for best.

 

[martian]

@martian , Groundswell was fantastic, but is it really the start of something in the UK if conservation agriculture is basically seen as a low fixed cost approach to conventional combinable cropping arable farms? If we are serious about pushing its environmental credentials, then we have to have something to show for it, and I'm not sure we do yet.

It's been very interesting having the #ourfield project on the farm this season. (This involves having 40 outside investors deciding what to grow in one of our fields, and how to grow it.) We've ended up with a field of spring sown spelt which to date has had no inputs at all...it's effectively organic without the certification. Considering how dry it's been and how late we drilled it (Easter Saturday), it's looking not too bad. The interesting part has been having 40 people breathing down our necks as we make decisions...not many people want another dose of fungicide, or any -cide on their food come to that. However, they seem to like the whole no-till approach (or maybe they are just being polite) and the story of soil regeneration plays well too. There are bakers and millers amongst them and there seems to be a lot of interest in alt-ag approaches which aren't strictly organic.

As @mikep says, this may be a marketing approach which is suited to the odd farm rather than creating a whole new label and quite possibly we're better off here on the edge of London than where you are, deep in the country, but I'm still quietly excited by the possibilities.

 

[mikep]

Everything useful is market led. If there is a demand someone will fill it, that's the easy bit. Reverse that and have a product for which you must create a demand is the interesting one. I use the term interesting as in the ancient Chinese curse 'may you live in interesting times'.
'Pasture fed' is a good example which may succeed and I hope it does.
Jordan's created a 'conservation grade' for which they are the sole user wheatabix ditto.
If you look at commodities like wheat you have black and white, if you worry about things buy organic of not buy normal, I don't think many people will half worry.
It's a bitch which will only get worse as free trade will suck in cheap imports whilst we area likely to be hamstrung by increasing green measures for which we will get no reward.
The only small bit of comfort I can see would be some schadenfreude when the organic market goes tits up as more try to get some organic premium. Yeah call me a miserable git but they poked the hornets nest if they get stung on the arse should I cry.

 

[Dan Powell]

The only small bit of comfort I can see would be some schadenfreude when the organic market goes tits up as more try to get some organic premium. Yeah call me a miserable git but they poked the hornets nest if they get stung on the arse should I cry.

Why is there so much hatred for organic on this forum? I just don't get it. Most organic farmers I meet are well intentioned and passionate about what they do.

 

[The_Swede]

Some of the soil associations antics have a lot to answer for here

 

[dontknowanything]

Why is there so much hatred for organic on this forum? I just don't get it. Most organic farmers I meet are well intentioned and passionate about what they do.

Personally I find the aggressively negative marketing from SA, Riverford etc very off-putting. Although I do continue to get a Riverford box every week.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Why is there so much hatred for organic on this forum? I just don't get it. Most organic farmers I meet are well intentioned and passionate about what they do.

It happens in real life too, not just a forum or even a British construct.
Comes down to: (in my sheltered opinion)

Lack of understanding of soil systems

Fear that it won't actually work in the end

Lack of room in the business to allow for any less production

Biggest: resentment towards the bodies that govern/regulate organics (which I share)

Many many of my fellow livestock farmers around here, are organic save for a drench/wormer programme, and maybe a little pre-em spray on a bulb crop for winter.
They just can't see past the worm burden and the weeds, and that they might have to address them in a different way.
Just my 2p

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Everything useful is market led. If there is a demand someone will fill it, that's the easy bit. Reverse that and have a product for which you must create a demand is the interesting one. I use the term interesting as in the ancient Chinese curse 'may you live in interesting times'.
'Pasture fed' is a good example which may succeed and I hope it does.
Jordan's created a 'conservation grade' for which they are the sole user wheatabix ditto.
If you look at commodities like wheat you have black and white, if you worry about things buy organic of not buy normal, I don't think many people will half worry.
It's a bitch which will only get worse as free trade will suck in cheap imports whilst we area likely to be hamstrung by increasing green measures for which we will get no reward.
The only small bit of comfort I can see would be some schadenfreude when the organic market goes tits up as more try to get some organic premium. Yeah call me a miserable git but they poked the hornets nest if they get stung on the arse should I cry.

You might be a miserable git, but I like your post.
It was just farming once, it will be again, in the meantime- I hope it pans out for all producers